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What appears extraordinary in the case for independence for Scotland, or independence from the EU for that matter, is the premise that reform of the issues and frustrations that undertsandably follow in the wake of "lack of control" to influence change and realistically tackle the complex causes of that discontent and vulnerability, has been abandoned, rather than be willing to review and accept failures with a genuine intent to "correct", which requires an open mind, a listening ear and an intellectual ability to rationalise the problems, prioritise the issues and formulate a package of reform that is accomplished in a timely manner that doesn't exacerbate the discontent and vulnerability in the interim.
This requirement for an open mind and willingness to reform and work together in that process to achieve mutually beneficial outcomes appears sadly lacking from those in power both in Scotland and the EU.
The similarities are starkly apparent in the form of "leaders" intransigence and ideology, which has left many with little choice but to abandon the failing system and take back control ( in the case of Brexit), and come together as a united country, in the form of a UNITED Kingdom ( in the case of Scottish independence), until such time as adequate reform and change of leadership within Scotland and the EU Commission is forthcoming.
This message was last edited by ads on 19/03/2017.
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Ads i totally agree with your post, a point well put. If Nicola Sturgeon does not get an independence referendum before the UK separation from the EU, she knows the Scottish electorate might not vote by majority for independence, so she has to stick her neck out while Brexit is conducted, as she knows that afterwards the moment is lost, and a referendum then might not be to her favour. She should remember that sticking ones neck out and losing is a very short sharp drop from the hangmans noose.
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Mmmm...on the other hand if May fails to get any deal and there is a 'cliff edge' EU exit the SNP have a perfect case. To my mind Sturgeon is in a win win situation.
No independence vote now looks to the Scots like the Tories dictating to them England's priorities over their own. A poor outcome from the negotiations is almost certain to produce independence for Scotland and perhaps unification for Northern Ireland.
It all adds to the pressure on May to bring home a good deal for Britain. If she fails she is done for.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Micky. So it's agreed then that Nicola sturgeon is playing politics as a game as you are suggesting?
And this at a time when working together would be better for all concerned? That looks like May has called it right and is doing exactly the right thing, and then she can get on with the grown up stuff.
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Best wishes, Brian
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Politics is about gaining advantage, the upper hand whenever you can find it certainly not a 'game' your word. Sturgeon would not act without the support of the SNP rank and file. From their recent spring conference it's clear she has that in spades.
During the EU referendum there were warnings about the break up of the UK union that were ignored by outers in their zeal to be rid of Europe.
Brexit may well prove to be the decisive move for the future that created the little state of England.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Mickey you say whichever way it goes Nicola Sturgeon is in a win -win situation, but that is assuming a result that would favour her either side of the UK's exit from the EU. If the result went the other way either side of the exit negotiations she would be in a lose-lose situation, so she really is playing with a double edged sword. You say she is in a good position, as you only see it the way she sees it, but you have to take account of all possibilities, in all eventualities, which she isnt doing, its that is the glass half empty or half full? moment, but to me there is neither, the glass just holds some drink. If you look at it that way, there is only one outcome, and that is what is right, not always what is desired.
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Mickey.
If yo followed events and exchanges in parliament last week you can remember that Theresa May said politics is not a game, in reference to the announcements by Nicola sturgeon.
So not my words at all, just a reference to Mays comments about Sturgeon. Also the way you describe politics, in this situation, you do seem to agree it's all about posturing and position seeking, which is a game by anyone's recognition.
At best I reckon Sturgeons intervention right now is damaging, and at worst it's devisive and nasty.
All she has to do is put a written request in through parliament and wait for an answer, she doesn't have to play to the gallery and make herself look grand.
Yes of course she has the support of the SNP, she's the part leader, the SNP also managed to bring four important inclusions to the brexit negotiations, its conspicuously missing in her comments that these are not mentioned
The SNP members will also have to vote alongside all the other Scottish people in any referendum, and remember not all SNP voters were voting no to Brexit last time (around 30% voted yes, how odd was that?)
This message was last edited by briando55 on 19/03/2017.
This message was last edited by briando55 on 19/03/2017.
This message was last edited by briando55 on 19/03/2017.
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Best wishes, Brian
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What will be will be
If Scotland get a vote and they choose to leave then that is up to them and the rest of the uk will have no say
Whatever deal the uk gets from brexit will be what it is and the uk electorate will have no say
We can guess assume research all possible outcomes but the fact remains nobody knows what will be
A lot of people are going to continue guessing and debating with no influence or say
Seems to me sturgeon is pushing to give the Scottish a say which is more than the rest of the uk will get
This message was last edited by Tadd1966 on 19/03/2017.
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Robert.
By any measure Britain in my view will not be able to achieve and outcome that will be favorable to Scotland in the negotiations. The reason being that Scotland voted to remain in the EU with all the advantages that brought.
Scotland wants to retain free movement, single market access; et al. May has ruled that out.
So whatever deal May manages to get from the EU it will presumbly be unacceptable to the Scottish people by virtue of the previous stance May has taken.
Of course it's entirely possible May will still return from the negotiations with a deal making everyone happy. " A Peace in our time" scenario. In that event I would agree the SNP has a problem.
Currently all the political pressure in on Theresa May to deliver. I would not want to be in her shoes and neither did Cameron.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Mickey, generally i agree with what you have just stated but i feel that yes you are right, Theresa May has a lot to be responsible for, but i also think over time she could quite possibly be as formidable as Margret Thatcher was in her day. She is no fool, or i think pushover.
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Mickeyfinn,
Your observation of political posturing is a power game by any other name and is ironically the very behaviour that alienated and frustrated many of those who have become increasingly disillusioned with the establishment, whether as in this particular scenario, this being in Scotland or the EU.
You appear to remain in denial of the many voices calling for change within the European Council Summit a few days ago (on iplayer under BBC Parliament channel ), where so many MEPs spoke of citizens being under pressure, for the need to tackle the root causes and face up to rising inequality, job insecurity, the race to the bottom rather than effectively tackle tax evasion by financial elites and multinationals, to fight for values, the rule of law, in the name of the people.
One of the most insensitive comments at the start of the summit ( even if said tongue in cheek) was made by Junker when he mockingly suggested that the new building that cost millions of Euros ( at a time of austerity) should be referred to as “the Tusk Tower” as opposed to the “other” (Trump), and then went on to suggest that he was the best European Commissioner and Tusk was the best President of the EU Parliament….
Such egotistical references only further alienated those calling for greater accountability and reform ( the outbursts were edited out) but it speaks reams of this powerful Commissioner and how out of touch and remote he appears from European citizens, and how insensitive comments and mocking behaviour only further exacerbates divisions.
Mr Tusk, although more reserved and keen to stress his commitment to achieving an agreement with the UK appeared uncomfortable with Junkers alienating choice of words. How someone in that position of power can retain their credibility when the need to bring people together has never been stronger, begs yet again all too many questions of a system in dire need of accountability and reform.
This message was last edited by ads on 19/03/2017.
This message was last edited by ads on 19/03/2017.
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Article 50 will be triggered next Wednesday, the 29th March 2017
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Best wishes, Brian
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nothing like hanging on to the end of the month......
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maybe in the next few months we will have some real facts to discuss rather than guesses and assumptions
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Tadd it also will reveal what Theresa May actually intends to negotiate, not just for us, but for our relationship with the EU in future.
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I think we all know pretty well by now what TM and the UK government want to negotiate with the EU on behalf of all citizens of the UK.
What remains to be seen is how much the EU is prepared to negotiate with us and just how much compromise there has to be on both sides to reach a mutually acceptable agreement, on trade, security, financial services, residency of EU and UK nationals etc. otherwise it really is trade on WTO terms and no deals.
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Mr Junkers has said today, the UK know what is on the table and they will have to eat from that table.
Sounds to me like we are going to be happy we are getting out of the way of these idiots.
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Best wishes, Brian
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He probably wants a disruptive reaction so maybe we shouldn't take the bait and rise above his alienating and insensitive rhetoric...Divide and rule and all that!! He sadly seems to be renowned for such behaviour so perhaps best ignored and focus on those committed to a less aggressive approach.
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Here's an intetesting article from Jan 2017 that begs many questions?
https://www.theparliamentmagazine.eu/articles/news/juncker-faces-calls-resign-following-claims-he-secretly-blocked-eu-tax-rules
"Revelations that Jean-Claude Juncker spent years "secretly blocking" EU efforts to tackle tax avoidance by multinational corporations during his tenure as Luxembourg's Prime Minister and minister of finance have led to calls for the Commission chief to stand down......
The code of conduct group was set up almost 19 years ago to prevent member states from being played off against one another by increasingly powerful multinational businesses, eager to shift profits across borders and avoid tax.
The leaked papers are said to be highly embarrassing for Juncker, who served as Luxembourg's Prime Minister from 1995 until the end of 2013. During that period he also acted as finance and treasury minister, taking a close interest in tax policy.
Despite having a population of just 560,000, Luxembourg was able to resist widely supported EU tax reforms, its dissenting voice often backed only by that of the Netherlands.
The papers were carefully analysed by GUE/NGL group MEP Fabio De Masi and Greens/EFA group MEP Sven Giegold.
De Masi, a Vice-Chair of Parliament's committee of inquiry into money laundering, tax avoidance and tax evasion (PANA) in Parliament, said the years' worth of confidential German diplomatic cables provide a candid account of Luxembourg's "obstructive manoeuvres" inside one of Brussels' most secretive committees.
He said, "Juncker should make a new year's resolution for the sake of Europe: he must step down."
The German MEP condemned Juncker's central role in the affair as revealed in the documents, saying, "The Juncker leaks show once again that the Commission President hindered progress in the fight against tax deals of big corporations in the EU."
He added, "Juncker is part of the problem and not the solution. It's absurd that millions of Europeans who have suffered from austerity policies that created social division now have the godfather of tax dumping presiding over the Commission.
"Member states lose hundreds of billions each year in their budgets due to these tax deals. This money is needed for massive public investments."
Parliament's GUE/NGL group said it will be requesting a plenary debate on the Juncker leaks and De Masi is pushing for the Commission President to be invited for questioning at the PANA committee.
"The Commission must free itself from the dark shadow of Juncker. It must help end tax competition instead of lowering real taxes for corporations through full transparency in the country-by-country reporting and a reform of the common consolidated corporate tax base (CCCTB)," he added.
A Commission source said it was not for the executive to respond to questions about negotiating positions Luxembourg had taken, or about the country's past tax policies."
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if you think back to pre referendum times, David Cameron protested that Juncker should not take up the position he now holds due to conflicts with EU policy and Junckers beliefs, but Cameron did not elaborate, i suppose because he was concerned there may have been repercussions for the UK if he protested too loudly. A pity no other member country backed Cameron.
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