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Wasn't it said the other day by Cameron's advisor, or someone similar that Cameron was would have been an outer if he wasn't who he is now.
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No Micky it is you who is confused.
I said nothing about Mrs Thatchers views on Europe.
Patrick Minford was around in the 80's and has a very good track record.
I pretty sure that Milton Friedman is no longer with us (but I suspect he would not be fond of the EU). He certainly believed the the Euro would be a bad thing for some countries and has prooved to be right.
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Wickipedia
Minford gained prominence in 1981 when 364 leading economists published a statement criticising Margaret Thatcher's economic policies; Minford replied by defending the Government in The Times. Thatcher subsequently wrote a letter to Minford to congratulate him. Minford was a supporter of the neoliberal theories of Milton Friedman a prominent member of ‘The Mont Pelerin Society’ (MPS) founded in 1947 by a group of 36 scholars meeting in Mont Pelerin, Switzerland.
364 leading economists - wrong
Patrick Minford - right
This message was last edited by tteedd on 01/06/2016.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 01/06/2016.
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Them 'Inner' guys don't read papers, like the Times, as it's all propagander lies, it's only the 'Outers' that believe what the media says, and read papers, so as to gain false information.....
So I have been told on more then one occasion.
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There's nothing like first hand experience to judge the realities, and economic theorists and political fear tactics only appear to alienate Jo public who are becoming wise to their ploys.
If history has taught us anything it's that the previous fear campaign employed to try and get Britain into the Eurozone set the benchmark for misinformation and gross miscalculation. And there were all too many financiers and economists ( including Christine Legarde ) included in that group.
The British public are now extremely wary of scare stories, and appear angry and frustrated when they perceive FIRSTHAND how their education, health system, housing supply, police and prison services have come under such pressure, not to mention their FIRSTHAND witness to downward effect on salaries.
So whether this be due in part to free movement of EU citizens which remains outside of their control, or by Govt mismanagement , the end result has been the same.
As for Cameron and Osbourne the fact that they stated their intent to control and bring down the migrant numbers in full knowledge of people's growing concerns just in order to get re- elected was yet another gross miscalculation on their part, and has only accentuated people's distrust and contempt for those who failed to ( and still fail to) appreciate their genuine vulnerabilities and ongoing concerns.
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Ads. Is that just a rant or is there a particular message in there somewhere?
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Best wishes, Brian
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ads, first hand experiences:
The Daily Mail’s headline on Tuesday included the word ‘Shambles’ when describing the lack of supervision in our minor ports and coastline by the ‘Border Force’, or to quote a friend that works for them ‘Border Farce’.
This reminded me of a seminar that I was in about 12 years ago which was run by the Immigration Service. One of the delegates was a retired Chief Constable. He commented “I don’t work for you (Immigration) but I do read the Daily Mail. When they say that Immigration is a shambles, listening to you lot, they’re right”.
In a Parliamentary Committee session, several years ago, the Head of the Immigration Service, Dave Roberts was asked how many people were illegally in the UK. He replied “I haven’t got the foggiest”.
We are part of the EU but the EU constantly fails to detect and manage properly the migrant population, preferring to shift the problem over to the next country. Borders within the EU are being closed. The EU does not, and will never have, equality in taxes, benefits, residency rules, racial and cultural issues ‘diversity’. And the UK has a strong economy, good welfare and health care and the pull of benefits. The pull is so much that people risk their lives to get from safe ‘mainland’ countries across the sea to the UK.
And if you didn't know it, the agreement to have UK Border Controls in France is a bilateral agreement with France, nothing to do with the EU. The simple reason is to stop Ship's Captains from being the Immigration Control as they are liable (as happens at the Airports) to repatriate any person refused admission.
Anyone living in Spain knows the rules of registration, residency and access to healthcare, and the risks of breaking these rules. Yet the consequences in the UK are far less. Immigration rules were relaxed by the pre-Blair conservative government, something that Blair and Co capitalised on whilst incredibly for a labour government they wanted to have ID Cards. Many times I’ve heard about people who are not claiming their benefits and how these people need to be identified so the benifits can be paid. I have also had conversations with elderly people who don’t claim what they are entitled to.
But the Tories abandoned ID cards and whilst I understand that they have/are working on a central system for ‘government services’ they still don’t seem to have the foggiest about how many people are illegally in or entering the country. There are Official Figures, the number of national insurance numbers issued last year but the real figure is the increase on demand in the NHS, an organisation spiralling out of control.
A couple of nights ago I was at an A&E in Surrey (which is a regular occurrence given our care commitments). As usual the place was obviously under pressure, understaffed and underfunded. Those present included many undesirables but also many who lack understanding of English. In this I include the staff, our last visit to that hospital included a Doctor who we could not understand, which unfortunately echo’s my personal experience and that of my wife who worked in London Hospital for 34 years.
Part of the problem lies directly with being a member of the EU. EU citizens have to be prioritised over citizens from other countries but many countries, particularly Commonwealth Countries and the Philippines, have far greater skills in English that EU residents, and many countries follow UK practices. I’ve met many Sri Lankans who are more British than the Brit’s.
Cameron has failed to negotiate any worthwhile changes to our Membership, trying to fool us into believing we have a ‘special relationship’ and we’d go to the back of the line, sorry Barrack, Queue, if we pulled out. Quite the contrary, after BREXIT, it remains in the EU, and rest of the world’s, interests to redefine their relationship with the UK. Or is this too much work for the Cameron Government who show very little belief in the UK and want to maintain the status quo. In a Europe under serious pressure from within with a currency that has failed.
This message was last edited by MikeandHelen on 02/06/2016.
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Non EU migrants principally want to go to the UK because they in the main are English speakers, have UK family ties, they are fleeing terrible lives in the home county, seek a chance of a better life in a safe country where employment chances are easier. I know it suits the Dailey Mails own agenda to claim they are all benefit scroungers but the research done proves that is untrue.
I repeat leaving the EU will not make any difference to the migrant situation.
It will however make a difference to the prospects for employment. The heads of Airbus, Siemens, and GKN issued a statement yesterday saying in the event of Brexit they will reconsider their investment in the UK. A host of other CEOs have said the same.
The outers simply cannot bury their heads in the sand and claim scaremongering. These warnings are real. International companies require access to the single market. Most of them invest in Britain only because of the countries ties with Europe.
Ask yourselves if you were an investor would you take a risk on a country whose government has no choice but to choose economic isolation because of this vote?
I guess for people concerned about migration it might do the trick. There will be no jobs anymore to attract people, no prospect of a better future. Back to the sixties and seventies, with all that entailed.
The Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy said in a speech in Madrid last night that a brexit vote would make life very difficult in Spain for British people in the future. "They will lose their residency and employment rights and will no longer be entitled to free movement in their country'.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 02/06/2016.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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MikeandHelen
after BREXIT, it remains in the EU, and rest of the world’s, interests to redefine their relationship with the UK.
WHY – one this that is for sure it will not be the UK who will define and the UK will simply have to take what is offered as the UK have nothing to offer anyone that they cannot produce, manage, service themselves
Part of the problem lies directly with being a member of the EU. EU citizens have to be prioritised over citizens from other countries
Rightly so we are a union same as any of the 4 nationalities within the UK. After an exit will the English Scottish, Wales and Northern Irish get priority over anyone else despite many from particularly Commonwealth Countries and the Philippines, have far greater skills in English that UK residents,?
Tories abandoned ID cards
Yes a disgrace the UK does not have ID cars
Anyone living in Spain knows the rules of registration, residency and access to healthcare, and the risks of breaking these rules
Many don’t and that is clear by the number of expats who ignore then and the lack of any enforcement by the Spanish
the agreement to have UK Border Controls in France is a bilateral agreement with France
yes but the French have already stated they would look to change this agreements. Same as the UK has many bi lateral agreements with EU member states (and many other countries across the world) and nobody in the exit campaign have said how or even if these will be honoured or renegotiated with EU member states
We are part of the EU but the EU constantly fails to detect and manage properly the migrant population,
As the UK are part of the EU why then the UK are just as guilty of this and being at the table as a full EU member state will allows the UK to participate in any fixes. How will UK fix this if the UK exits
As usual the place was obviously under pressure, understaffed and underfunded.
This is a UK problem not EU – an exit will not fix this
The EU does not, and will never have, equality in taxes, benefits, residency rules, racial and cultural issues ‘diversity’
The UK can’t get this right on its own NOW so what will change if the UK exits
This something we should be prioritising and striving towards as I have said many times EQUALITY FOR ALL EU CITIZENS.
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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FT quote this morning:
A UK vote to leave the EU risks upending the careers of a group of highly skilled workers at one of Europe’s most powerful institutions: British employees of the European Central Bank.
The Eurozone’s central bank has employed Britons since its inception and about 160 of the ECB’s staff of about 2,650 are UK nationals at present, helping to run an institution which — although based in Germany — operates in English.
However, the central bank’s rules state that only EU citizens can apply to work there, throwing the job security of British staff into doubt and closing the door to recruits should the UK vote to leave the bloc in its June 23 referendum.
I wonder how many other EU companies who employ British workers will follow suit. Will the British any longer be allowed to work in Europe? Will preference be given to EU nationals? Are EU companies already not employing UK nationals in anticipation or uncertainty of the vote?
Brexit offers a bleak future for Britain and the ambitious young who want to work in Europe. It is very clear to me EU employers in Europe would give priority to EU nationals with the same skills.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Micky said,
'Will the British any longer be allowed to work in Europe?'
To quote John McEnroe, 'You Cannot Be Serious'
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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Non EU migrants principally want to go to the UK because they in the main are English speakers, have UK family ties, they are fleeing terrible lives in the home county, seek a chance of a better life in a safe country where employment chances are easier. I know it suits the Dailey Mails own agenda to claim they are all benefit scroungers but the research done proves that is untrue.
Another crock of crap, if they wanted to come because they speak English, why aren't we overloaded with Aussies, Canadians, Americans and so on. They want the UK because it's free with it's handouts, they have messed up the country they left behind, we have no jobs, employment is not better here, what research on scroungers, did you do it, or is it that you do believe everything your told from the media and people who want the figures to look good.
I repeat leaving the EU will not make any difference to the migrant situation.
It might not, as it's not working now in the EU its time to try another stance perhaps.
It will however make a difference to the prospects for employment. The heads of Airbus, Siemens, and GKN issued a statement yesterday saying in the event of Brexit they will reconsider their investment in the UK. A host of other CEOs have said the same.
Of course you don't read papers or listen to the news or you would know we are losing business's every day.
The outers simply cannot bury their heads in the sand and claim scaremongering. These warnings are real. International companies require access to the single market. Most of them invest in Britain only because of the countries ties with Europe.
Us outers don't have our heads in the sand, we the outers have no idea what could happen if we left, it's you inners that keep on about what will happen if we leave.....How do you know?
Ask yourselves if you were an investor would you take a risk on a country whose government has no choice but to choose economic isolation because of this vote?
Investors are basically gamblers, and mostly with other peoples money, millions of investors made millions before the EU, who on earth can suggest that would stop just because we left, folk made money on selling houses way before the EU, if they dropped as the inners warn...So would the one you bought, if you are selling a product at the right price and an investor could see a profit....They buy.
I guess for people concerned about migration it might do the trick. There will be no jobs anymore to attract people, no prospect of a better future. Back to the sixties and seventies, with all that entailed.
You have to be someone who has no idea of what is happening in the UK right now to make that statement, someone with eyes closed shut.
The Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy said in a speech in Madrid last night that a brexit vote would make life very difficult in Spain for British people in the future. "They will lose their residency and employment rights and will no longer be entitled to free movement in their country'.
Considering what he stands to lose for his country in terms of money don't you think he might say this.
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Us outers don't have our heads in the sand, we the outers have no idea what could happen if we left
Baz you've summed it up in one line, If thats what you want for your family fair play - I certainly don't want that for mine
And when I'm on the subject, NON EU IMMIGRATION has nothing to do with the EU it's down to the policy of the UK government - you just got to hope that Corbyn and his rabble don't get in, they will just open the gate.
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baz wrote:
Another crock of crap
Is that remark really necessary? Its an indication of your command of language. Moderators please note.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Well it's well deserved after what has been told about leaving, remember we outers have had to read that we are all almost morons for reading the papers and watching unfounded news reports.
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You attacked my posts as a 'crock of crap'. The least you can do is apologise.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Cameron appears to have alienated both in and out campaigners which doesn't bode well if he remains the negotiator in either scenario.
The failure to gain a deal that takes account of the realities and vulnerabilities that many have exposed only goes to prove how the EU sadly appear intransigent to reform and address citizens concerns. Given the existing system it appears nigh on impossible to address these major concerns.
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I just wonder if the EU top dogs will come up with a last minute goody bag that converts the sceptics into europhiles, handing the presents out weeks before Christmas takes the shine off them.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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You attacked my posts as a 'crock of crap'. The least you can do is apologise.
You have been going on for weeks now, or in the least many posts about all the folk who want to leave haven't a clue as to what they are doing.
You have told on many occasions that the outers read the Daily Mail and other such dribble, which are one sided papers, and who ever reads these and believes the garbage is next to being nuts.
Every post from you is the 100% known truth according to you on a subject that hasn't even happened yet.
You quote many 'Experts' and much 'Research' yet again when others read and watch the news and maybe post what they read and saw...Are totally wrong.
You hardly ever answer a straight forward question put to you, and it sure as hell looks like if you dont like the mode of the question you wont answer it because it doesn't fit in with you.
Its an indication of your command of language.
Yes, it is an indication of my lack of command of language, I say what I mean, I call a spade a spade, I tell it how I see it, and the true fact is, I and you both have no idea of anything about this in or out business, something I have always said.
As far as an apology goes Nelson has more chance of getting his eye back then me doing that.
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Re political goody bags, the skill comes from recognising if the bag is sufficiently glossy ( rhetoric) and intended to detract from the contents, or if the present has indeed addressed the recipient's genuine concerns!😉
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