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tteedd.
Please don't personalise this debate, so far it's been very informative and well argued. Making personal attacks against other posters does not help any cause. Politicians are fair game because the system of government in the UK is adversarial.
I have previously described the state of the UK economy before 1975 on this thread. Basically it was in very poor shape. I believe the prosperity and freedoms Britain has enjoyed since membership speaks for itself.
Winston Churchill actually first suggested a European common market and actually tried to unify the UK with France into one single state before the Germans invaded.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Not I using names.
When I make an assertion about a person or a subject I try to give some reason why this should be so. Just saying that someone is a 'dreamer', or 'misguided' or saying 'it is better in' does not make it so.
Some of the debate is indeed, as you say, informative and well argued. But some of it is unverifyable nonsense.
The econonomy may well have been in poor shape in the early 70's but was undeniably worse in the late seventies after 6 or 7 years in the EEC.
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@ tteed "The economy may well have been in poor shape in the early 70's but was undeniably worse in the late seventees after 6 or 7 years in the EEC".
The economy was undeniably worse not through 6-7 years membership of the EEC, but through Britain being a total basket case, lurching from a sterling crisis to an energy crisis to a docks crisis to a railway crisis to miners strikes to streets overflowing with garbage and almost total economic collapse. I don't for one minute believe membership of the EEC singly handedly saved the UK's bacon - I think Mrs Thatcher and North Sea Oil did that, but equally the EEC wasn't to blame for the UK's collapse, which tteed clearly implies without any apparent shred of justification.
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Scollins
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Don't forget to take account of the Banking crisis in the interim and the part this has played too! It's all added a sense of outrage and insecurity which many have struggled with, in terms of comprehending who is accountable ....politicians, Banks, unions, large corporations, and so it goes on. Perhaps it's all part of a major learning curve but one thing for sure is that the rule of law and effective regulatory bodies appear essential " tools" to act as civilised controls on abusive, selfish and greedy human traits!!!
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Greed on an industrial scale began after 'big bang' in the city with the 'loadamoney' generation. Mrs Thatcher encouraged it, misguidingly believing it was good for the country. It has poisoned the country ever since. It was one of the reasons I emigrated to Europe. That greed culture does not exist to the same extentin some parts of Europe. In France the state controls effectively the excess of these markets.
Financial service industries are just as common in France the difference is professional bodies require standards of training, qualification and Viv. For example to become an estate agent you have to obtain a uni degree which takes five years to obtain. That prevents the spivs from operating.
In Spain professional accountability in financial services is virtually non existent. Corruption is endemic and standards across the board are very low. Anyone can set themselves up as anything. This is a Spanish national government problem, not an EU one.
If the EU adopted a genuine federal system with laws of professional standards binding on member states things might change in Spain for the better. Vested interest groups will always resist change until its forced upon them.
One thing is fairly certain however Britain would continue to resist all attempts by the EU to further regulate its financial service industry. If Britain left the EU just watch the existing shackles fall away.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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I agree with much of your analysis Mickeyfinn but please don't overlook the EU's failure to protect when it had " instruments" to do so during this last decade (infringement).
At every opportunity it turned it's back on major Banking abuse and lack of adequate regulation and non adherence to EXISTING law ( Ley 57/68) and still the abuse continues not only with the widespread Bank Guarantee abuse which " innocents " are struggling to fight due to an overstretched and under resourced Court and justice system, but now also major Banking mortgage abuse ( floor clauses). The scale of which is only just coming to light."Banks condemned by recent Court decission on Floor Clauses in Mortgage interests in Spain"
What saddens me is that all too often if people had come together to tackle this head on as a genuine property rights issue ( instead of implying there was citizen abuse/ greed/ etc) which was so far from the truth in the main, this could have been prevented in its tracks. Can't tell you how many times when trying to educate of the realities and strategy to reform to the genuine benefit of all in the longer term, the argument has been shot down by those either fearful of necessary reform and FAIR regulation or those with hidden agendas intent on ignoring how corruption is a downward spiral.
Hence my cry for due attention from the EU to the rule of law.
This message was last edited by ads on 21/04/2016.
This message was last edited by ads on 21/04/2016.
This message was last edited by ads on 21/04/2016.
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Entirely agree ads.
What you are up against is the enemic culture in Spain of under the table deals, backhanders and con men working as professionals. I have many Spanish friends and they tell me it's always been this way in the country. It's espected. It's not seen as a negative it's viewed as a way to get ahead. The laws to contol it are in place but the effective reporting, investigation and enforcement is not.
If the EU tried pressurising Spain to adhere to laws of control there would certainly be a backlash especially from the PP, Bank of Spain and other vested interest groups.
Perhaps Podemos if they manage to get power may change things.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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How then can the EU act in the best interests of those it serves ( it's citizens)? And how can we be sure that the Commission are not unduly influenced by those with hidden intent ( the Banks, large Corporations, etc). At least in your own country you can vote out those who do not act in your best interests ( or the country's best interests)?
This message was last edited by ads on 21/04/2016.
This message was last edited by ads on 21/04/2016.
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Well you can vote for an MEP. The commission lasts five years and changes reappointed by member states. Remember France and Holland rejected an EU constitution written by Giiscard d'Estaing in 2002. That would have made the commission electable but the voters saw it as a step to federalisim and they didn't want it.
There was an interesting piece on Brexit in the Telegraph this morning by Ambrose Prichard. My eye caught this:
Asked in the latest Eurobarometer poll whether their voice is heard in the EU, 61pc of Spaniards said they "totally disagree". The illusions have faded. Yet there is no eurosceptic party. The political 'levantamiento' last year was against the Madrid elites, not Brussels..
You are not alone ads.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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So the message should be sounding loud and clear for those citizens unhappy with the status quo and anxious for reform to start making their MEPS truly accountable by consistently "educating" of the realities affecting their lives and demanding that they formulate an effective strategy to tackle the real problems associated with abuse and corruption from whatever quarter it comes.
The trouble is many couldn't tell you who their MEP was, let alone inform of their concerns. Here's a start for those who have a UK postcode. www.writetothem.com This identifies all your MEPs ( and MPs for that matter).
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I think its wise to remember just what the EU is, one big money pit business where everyone who is in it can dip fingers and toes into it, it does seem that since the EU has been made every MP in power has one thing in mind, get voted in whatever local chosen constituency, stay the distance, leave, get into the money pit of the EU.
A "Get us out" UK MP who recently became an EU MP told on national TV of how on his first day in Brussels he was asked for his train ticket, from the UK to Brussels by a EU office worker, she went of and came back with a large stash of notes, he asked whats this only to be told this is your expenses for the train ticket to get here, he openly admitted that he thought a mistake had been made over the large amount of money handed over, no thats correct she said.
What does it matter what laws are passed? Who cares about the amounts going out? Who cares about who complains about what? Who gives a toss that not much gets changed? Who cares how good the person is? ...Of course from inside the EU that is.
Would you sooner be a Milkman or EU MP?
No doubt I am wrong and the EU is not like this.
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Have you written to your MEP Baz1946 to express your concerns and ask what procedures are in place to counter such abuse?
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Some time ago (12 months) I wrote to Cameron, not about these discussed items here now as they were not to the fore then, it was on behalf of an ex-service chap who to be honest was treated very bad by just about everyone he tried talking to, I carry no weight behind any argument. Got a nice answer back from no 10 telling me that the letter was to be forwarded on to the relevant department, no answer back, I wrote again to Cameron this time telling him what had happened, of course he don't get to read these letters, nice one back, same answer as before, the relevant department is looking into it....Still, I have to suppose.
I have written to other MP's asking why a / any immigrant can come here with basically no ID, no past checkable history, then get benefits which add up to so much more then a fully paid up UK bred and born retired person gets every week in pension payments...Try that one and see what you get back?
Now I don't bother to write to any MP or MEP as I know what crap they are going to write back with, hence my post, you can ask them anything but don't expect them to upset the golden apple / egg cart, for them that is.
Shame it is, but thats the real world, not the world they would like us to believe they are making for us.
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Putting your concerns in writing to MEPs is essential to act as a record of your communication for onward transmission to the EU Commission and relevant EU Ministers if you fail to get the reqd response. Plus if everyone failed to do this then only yourselves to blame if concerns are not adequately communicated. To gain true accountability takes time and effort and the starting point is the MEP. Please communicate through the official channels and please bring their attention to the need for member states adherence to the rule of law.
This message was last edited by ads on 21/04/2016.
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This is such a thing as on line petitions. If you get more than 10,000 signatures for any cause the govenment has to respond and sometimes if the cause gets 100,000 the subject is then raised in parliament for debate.
https://petition.parliament.uk/
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 21/04/2016.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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They had one of these for something a short while ago, when it got to nearly 100.000 groans it got removed.
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I think there is a covenent that requires MPs to act if signatures reach that level baz. I have watched debates in the commons when it took place.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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I have no doubt there is, just wish I could remember what one it was they pulled, I only noticed it gone because I went to view it, and I wasn't the only person to notice this, I have no interest in things like this but this one intrigued me, can only think it was one they didn't like to much, a bit to hot perhaps.
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If you want EU reform then you have to contact MEPs as the current UK Govt dont appear willing to do more and have their hands tied with the current Treaty arrangements (always saying its outside their remit and up to individual member states to reform, according to the Treaty..... Infringement process appears to only be enacted as last resort mechanism when all else has failed). Several of us (including Keith Rule) discussed the BG abuse with the Foreign Office Minister way back when, all to no avail as far as reform of Banking regulation and timely justice was concerned.
The situation re the Rule of Law however IS covered within the EU Commissions Mission statement, so they cant dismiss this but must ensure adequate monitoring and enforcement of the rule of law is effectively followed through (timely justice, adequate resources to ensure fair and equal enforcement of law, legal certainty, judges to remain independent and free from political persuasion etc). The EU Commission keep saying that there is a monitoring process in place but it is totally inadequate as they are NOT picking up all the instances of Banking abuse.
At the moment there is insufficient feedback (non of the legal teams at present perceive this as part of their remit) so its up to as many individuals as possible to bring this to legal teams and MEP's attention by requesting they forward legitimate concerns to the EU Commission.
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I have a very strong feeling that certain of the subscribers to the Brixit (why that name?) forum have never, since the inception of the EU, bothered to find out what it is about - far too many subscribers seem not to know even the fundamentals of its objectives. And those that do know are, for sure, the ones that say, or feel, the UK should remain in the EU! And, also, those knowledgable ´ins´, are desperately trying to educate the ´outs´ before they attempt to destroy the link with the UK´s salvation!
If I were not a Brit and had been following all the ins and outs of the situation, I would be saying (truthfully) ´If the UK votes to stay in the EU, I think the EU, itself, should consider holding a referendum of the other 27 EU nations, on whether, or not, to expel the UK´ from the club´!! I have lived in the continent of Europe for 39 years now working with colleagues in the Netherlands, Germany,France and Belgium (now living, for 16 years, in a mainly non-Brit Spain urb.) and, believe me, the sentiments against the British whining and complaining, that pours out continuously, has been hard to put up with. Thank goodness, I am past being ashamed of the British attitude and I no longer apologise whenever it is discussed or imposed.
OK, so many will say ´who cares what the other 27 think of us - even though we saved the majority of them in WW2. But what we were primarily doing was to try and save ourselves. The Brits and continental Europe were saved, of course, by the USA!!
Wake up Britain.
Enough said.
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