BREXIT

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03 Mar 2017 10:36 AM by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1593 posts Send private message

hugh_man´s avatar

Just how is that good for a large number who felt in June and probably still do so, that once the extrication has taken place, we actually may be able to be better off without EU constaints.

Can we not see that June was a vote against the EU establishment as it curently is, seen by many, not just in the UK as a failed experiment as far as workers, or rather the unemployed of Europe are concerned, in need of adapting to the problems and demands that were not faced 40 years agao. but an EU which has been great for big business and a gravy train of officialdom to flourish.

It is NOT a vote against Europe.

If you generally believe in something, surely the objections and dissapprovals faced are worth confronting and appeasing.

 

The Lords and others are asking why qualified EU nationals will now come to the UK with no guarantee for their Rights.

How about the simple answer, they will come for work, which is not availale in their own country, which is what freedom of movement for work was supposed to be about if they are valued in their country of choice why on earth would they be sent home.

People have migrated and moved for work for centuries with NO guaranteed rights

If there is work in the UK as now, we will employ foreign nationals as now, only difference is that we will be able to establish sensible controls and criteria, hopefully reducing the pressures on needs for Housing, schools, NHS etc.

The proof will be seen when the UK is no longer linked to the EU s failings.

 


This message was last edited by hugh_man on 03/03/2017.



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03 Mar 2017 11:08 AM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

Great post Hugh man, especially your point about this is not a vote against Europe and your point about citizens being valued.

To be honest, I also want the EU to reform in this process to the benefit of citizens still remaining in the EU, as it isn't in anyone's best interests for the EU to continue " being great for big business and a gravy train of officialdom to flourish", or to deny "sensible controls and criteria" etc.

 





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03 Mar 2017 12:15 PM by robertt8696 Star rating in Midlands, UK. 479 posts Send private message

my view of the vote is similar to others in that i am dissatisfied with the EU and its policies , which as many have said do not suit all scenarios and is flawed. In principle i agree, therefore with the leave vote, but at the same time how do things that are flawed get improved? By dialogue and involvement of course, finding legislation that suits the majority, an EU majority, not UK. I feel that by leaving, not only have we let our EU partners down we have let ourselves down, as staying we could argue points to improve everyones existence. This would of course be an ongonig situation, and would take many many years to make any difference to our lives, but i feel the benefit would, managed properly, be greater than going it alone.

The problem with this pipe dream (i say it myself) is the politicians, and not just the UK, who backpeddle on many levels, as they are not truly interested in change, just putting in hours, so they can claim a maximum for a minimum work load. It is not just the EU regulations , it is the politicians who sit in chamber and never petition for change, and as a result the EU remains after all the years it has existed, as an experiment rather than a reality.





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03 Mar 2017 1:13 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

It is not true the EU is unwilling to consider reforms

The European Commission has recently acknowledged a need for change and has put forward  several proposals to move forward after Brexit. President Jean-Claude Juncker has revealed his five future "pathways" for the European Union after Brexit.

His white paper looks at various options, from becoming no more than a single market to forging even closer political, social and economic ties. |Here is a short summary from the BBC web site.

The 27 leaders of EU countries will discuss the plans, without Britain, at a summit in Rome later this month.

The meeting will mark the EU's 60th anniversary.

Germany's foreign minister, Sigmar Gabriel, has already responded to dismiss the idea of the EU purely being a single market.

Path one: 'Carrying on'

The remaining 27 members stick on the current course, continuing to focus on reforms, jobs, growth and investment.

There is only "incremental progress" on strengthening the single currency.

Citizens' rights derived from EU law are upheld.

Path two: 'Nothing but the single market'

The single market becomes the EU's focus.

Plans to work more on migration, security or defence are shelved. The report says this could lead to more checks of people at national borders.

Regulation would be reduced but this could create a "race to the bottom" as standards slip, it says.

It becomes difficult to agree new common rules on the mobility of workers, so free movement of workers and services is not fully guaranteed.

Path three: 'Those who want to do more'

If member countries want to work more with others, they can.

Willing groups of states can form coalitions on key areas, such as defence, internal security, taxation and justice.Relations with outside countries

Path four: 'Doing less, more effectively, including trade negotiations, remain managed at EU level on behalf of all member states.

The EU focuses on a reduced agenda where it can deliver clear benefits: technological innovation, trade, security, immigration, borders and defence.

It leaves other areas - regional development, health, employment, social policy - to member states' own governments.

U agencies tackle counter-terrorism work, asylum claims and border control. Joint defence capacities are established.

The report says all this would make a simplified, less ambitious EU.

Path five: 'Doing much more together'

Feeling unable to meet the today's challenges alone or as part of the existing group, EU members agree to expand the union's role.

Members agree "to share more power, resources and decision-making across the board".

The single currency is made central to the project, and EU law has a much larger role.

Several European "Silicon Valleys" would emerge, says the report.

Decisions and action would be taken more quickly, but, the paper warns, "there is the risk of alienating parts of society which feel that the EU lacks legitimacy or has taken too much power away from national authorities".

 

 

 


 


This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 03/03/2017.

_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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03 Mar 2017 2:03 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

Thanks Mickeyfinn,

It is true however that the EU appeared unwilling to consider reforms and make known these options whilst the EU referendum debate was ensuing ("recently acknowledged a need for change"). Crazy!

So it appears, as some have suggested, that Brexit has forced The Commission's arm to respond and take a less intransigent stance Mickeyfinn as the EU Parliament recognised in their recent vote.

Let's see how the EU Commission respond to those within the EU Parliament who have expressed their desire for a less confrontational approach to the UK in the upcoming negotiations with a view to achieving mutually beneficial outcomes.

Time will tell.

 

 

 


This message was last edited by ads on 03/03/2017.



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03 Mar 2017 4:34 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

Yes ads that's fair comment I do acknowledge Brexit has probably been a force for change. It's sad indeed that the UK had to fall on it's sword to do it and will in future be outside the tent p***ing in. However I think further European integration would never take place with the UK still inside the tent.

So as a committed EU integrationist in the final analysis the UK going is the best thing to happen for Europe going forward but not I believe for Britain. The costs are going to be huge.

 


This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 03/03/2017.

_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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03 Mar 2017 4:43 PM by Jarvi Star rating in Halifax UK and Sucin.... 756 posts Send private message

MORE than half of Dutch voters want to leave the European Union and seek an alternative trade agreement with the rest of the continent in the style of Brexit, a bombshell poll reveals today.

Brussels was facing a full blown popularity crisis as the dynamite survey showed 56 per cent of people in the Netherlands want to quit the political project and revert back to simple commercial ties. 

The shock result was published just two weeks before Dutch voters are set to go to the polls to elect their new government, with far-right eurosceptic politician Geert Wilders leading in the polls. 





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03 Mar 2017 7:21 PM by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1593 posts Send private message

hugh_man´s avatar

The problem with this pipe dream (i say it myself) is the politicians, and not just the UK, who backpeddle on many levels, as they are not truly interested in change, just putting in hours, so they can claim a maximum for a minimum work load. It is not just the EU regulations , it is the politicians who sit in chamber and never petition for change, and as a result the EU remains after all the years it has existed, as an experiment rather than a reality.

Robert

I think you have nailed it, successive politicians on all,sides have letdown their electorate as no change suits their interests not those of the people.

The EU was and is an experiment which has proven not to satisfy all its citizens who for many years have just gone along with it.

Brexit, was the first step 

As Jarvi states there is unrest in Holland and certainly growing concern in France and even Germany.

Other nations may not the chance to vote but messages will be sent by the voters.

Will the politicians and bureaucrats pay Any Attention?

Probably not as their comfy lifestyle disappears with change.





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03 Mar 2017 8:18 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

'The costs are going to be huge.'

Tell us more?

 

' *** '

iss? , oop? surely not eep? no need to use asterisks.

 

 


This message was last edited by tteedd on 03/03/2017.



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03 Mar 2017 11:59 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

If the EU Commission remain unwilling to seek out mutually beneficial solutions in the Brexit negotiations and fail to heed the mood of other member states, they will do a grave disservice to the original intent to unite citizens across Europe.

 





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04 Mar 2017 12:17 AM by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1982 posts Send private message

But how likely is a referendum in other EU member countries?    

The reporting and the mood may be there but the politicians are scared stiff of allowing any vote to take place, the EU hierarchy are safe as houses and smug as bugs, until the people can speak. 



_______________________

Best wishes, Brian

 




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04 Mar 2017 12:38 AM by robertt8696 Star rating in Midlands, UK. 479 posts Send private message

Brian you are so right the only reason we were allowed a vote was that David Cameron was so sure the UK population would vote in favour of remain, and show him off to be a compassionate caring politician. Well when the vote went the other way he soon scuttled off to oblivion!





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04 Mar 2017 12:25 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

Mickeyfinn identified, "The 27 leaders of EU countries will discuss the plans/ options, without Britain, at a summit in Rome later this month."

By stating this prior to triggering article 50, the EU bureaucrats have made the assumption that article 50 will be triggered, and therefore only the remaining 27  member states will be present at the summit to be held later in the month.

With this in mind, this presumably means that the EU bureaucrats will have no future right to request that the UK contribute to any future ongoing commitments that arise from the summit and directly impact the UK during this two year transition period prior to exit, since the UK had no legal representation at that meeting?  Is this correct?

They also appear to be suggesting  that the UK pay amounts (yet to be decided upon) re outstanding commitments made prior to the Brexit decision.

But I have some " technical" queries going forward....

Since according to EU budgets to date, all member states  payments/ contibutions appear out of line with prior commitments , (in the form of growing monetary shortfalls), will these prior UK commitments have to be pro rata'd to take account of lack of benefits going forward ( i.e. beyond the date of exit)?

And during the upcoming negotiations, once article 50 is triggered, will the UK and EU bureaucrats be negotiating upon those UK prior commitments that they wish to mutually retain, or will all prior commitments ( and outstanding payments relating to benefits beyond the exit date) be written off and started afresh in the form of a new negotiated treaty as a non EU country?

 





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04 Mar 2017 12:40 PM by robertt8696 Star rating in Midlands, UK. 479 posts Send private message

Ads, your quote from Mickeyfinn says, "The 27 leaders of EU countries will discuss the plans/ options, without Britain, at a summit in Rome later this month." All you mention are relevent to the UK leaving the EU, but the quote says"will discuss the plans/options". Do you not think that the meeting is to discuss what the EU is going to do during the UK negotiations to exit, and what they might agree under certain scenarios? That being the case it would be stupid to invite the UK to those meetings as it would allow the UK government to know what the EU might offer to the UK and would allow the UK to counter that before negotiations start. In short it would not be conducive for both sides to be present at such a meeting, and anyway would mean exit negotiations had started before Article 50 had been triggered.





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04 Mar 2017 12:51 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

According to some legal advice from the House of Lords EU finanical affairs sub-committee the British government would have no legal obligation to either pay a €60bn (£52bn) Brexit bill mooted by the European commission or honour payments into the EU budget promised by the former prime minister David Cameron.

In a report published today, the committee argues that the British government would be on strong legal ground if it chose to leave the EU without paying anything, adding that Brussels would have no realistic chance of getting any money.

A bit like booking a wedding, not turning up and not paying the costs and then running off with a bridesmade.

I think whatever the legal view there is a moral duty so to do which I'm sure the rabid outers on here would not agree with so please don't bother shouting foul.

In fact unless the British government seeks to destroy relationships with the EU commission sensible compromises will have to be found. Dealing with EU always means giving a bit and taking a bit. Leaving will be exactly the same process and the UK cannot expect a cost free exit.

There is much horse trading ahead.



_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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04 Mar 2017 1:11 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

Robert, I wasn't suggesting the UK should have been present, but merely stating the facts as they appear, and asking for some clarification. wink

Mickeyfinn,

Good to see that you too seek sensible compromises which presumably leads to sensible mutually beneficial solutions. wink





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04 Mar 2017 1:38 PM by robertt8696 Star rating in Midlands, UK. 479 posts Send private message

It doesnt matter if you are for remain or leave camps, what we need to see Mickeyfinn, is a sensible approach to negotiations resulting in our exit from the EU. If the UK does not make the EU at least reasonably happy with the split, they could make trading, migration, Etc, Etc very hard for us post Brexit. This will of course mean that we will inevitably have to give more than we possibly take, to ensure a well managed economy and population, and the UK to go forward. It is going to be a hard future for the short term at the very least, a future i think most of the leave vote didnt consider when they made their vote.





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04 Mar 2017 2:29 PM by hughjardon Star rating in Jaywick Sands. 418 posts Send private message

hughjardon´s avatar

Well they had better not SCREW us so WIN WIN for UK we could have a REFERENDUM on if we PAY THEM OR NOT 

LOL 

I may come from a SIMPLE MIND background but 52% of us SIMPLETONS got it sorted for you DOUBTERS 

Well done UK for having the BALLS to take that LEAP into the UNKOWN

Ps reckon those Lords and Peers are ALRIGHT AFTERALL

Love Hugh xx



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Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK



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04 Mar 2017 4:34 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

"there is a moral duty so to do"

 

The government has a moral duty not to wast the tax payers money.

How about claiming payment for our share of the EU buildings and infrastructure that we will no longer be using?

There is a case for transitional payments where commitments have been made, but even these should be subject to the negociation of satisfactory trading arrangements.





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04 Mar 2017 4:39 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

"Lords and Peers are ALRIGHT AFTERALL"

 

It was legal advice given to the government and Lords. Nothing to do with the lords themselves, many of whom are trying to insert ammendments designed to screw Brexit.





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