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Ads, my rights are set out in the 1972 Community Act that the government intends to repeal without reference to Parliament or the electorate. And my existing rights trump any rights that the public may think they have granted themselves by voting in a non-binding, advisory referendum.
Piffle
Why have I come back? There is more rubbish being spouted than ever on here.
A referendum is the purest form of democracy. We have given our instruction to parliament and they are bound to follow our instruction.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 24/10/2016.
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If parliament were stupid enough to ignore the referendum result, each by election up to the next general election would be very interesting. I reckon that the most obscure of candidates would find themselves elected, also during this period the right wing parties would have the time to form a plan of attack, perhaps this is what an autocratic none listening elected body would deserve.
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IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.
THANK YOU.
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Dozens of MPs have signed a joint letter, organised by a group that aims to hold leave campaigners to their pre-referendum promises, which calls on the government to uphold the most infamous Brexit promise of all – £350m more a week to be spent on the NHS.
You could easily argue that if the referendum vote is binding on the government then so are the commitments the politicians now in power promised.
If none of the promises are kept then why should Brexit take place? Unless of course it's accepted the vote leave campaign was actuially all a con trick.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Mickyfinn (I think someone must have slipped you one):
You say:
Dozens of MPs have signed a joint letter, organised by a group that aims to hold leave campaigners to their pre-referendum promises, which calls on the government to uphold the most infamous Brexit promise of all – £350m more a week to be spent on the NHS.
You could easily argue that if the referendum vote is binding on the government then so are the commitments the politicians now in power promised.
If none of the promises are kept then why should Brexit take place? Unless of course it's accepted the vote leave campaign was actuially all a con trick.
And if we observed the 'inners' proclamations:
We should go and start WW3.
We should have an emergency budget to avert armageddon.
We should prepare for the collapse of the housing market.
We should be now suffering a collapse of the shares market.
So just as any sane person never expected any of the proclamations to happen, we also never believed
that 350million a week would go to the NHS and it was never promised.
The slogan read:
We send 350 million a week to the EU (we all knew that this was the gross figure, before deductions).
Let's fund our NHS instead,
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Perrypower
You said:
BigAl, you could not be more wrong on how negotiations work.
Please enlighten me, do we thorw everything on the table for all to see and hope that the EU do the same, I would say you are living in 'cloud cuckoo land' but that is a foregone conclusion.
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Oh dear, has it come to this where we all have to bring to the attention of those refusing to accept the voice of the people all the LIVE debates and continual educative cross questioning by many astute interviewers where the 350 miilion gross figure was constantly debated and reclarified with nett figure leaving the general public in little doubt. Have you not observed how this figure of 350 million once reclarified was being constantly wrongly reinforced as being net and solely intended for the NHS, not by the leave campaign but the remain campaign in their attempt to confuse the electorate? No one should have been under any illusions by the end of the campaign and it is dishonest and hypocritical to suggest otherwise.
Following this logic through, do the leave voters have to organise a similar campaign to demonstrate how the facts were wrongly presented to them in terms of the remain's economic model which has now been admitted by Osborne to be invalid (since it wrongly worked upon worse case data)?
No we have to acknowledge the democratic voice of the people as the majority of all Parliamentarians have already expressed in Parliament.
This message was last edited by ads on 24/10/2016.
This message was last edited by ads on 24/10/2016.
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That is pretty much exactly what you do BigAl. If you don't spell out clearly, exactly what you want from a partner how do you expect to get it. At this stage we are talking about Brexit. The exit from the EU. How will that work? What laws will still apply? How much EU debt will be the UK's share?. How will expats on both sides of the channel be treated? How will borders be affected? How will Pension payments be taxed? How will Healthcare work? How will arrest warrants be dealt with? How will intelligence be passed back and forth? How will future payments already agreed and committed be handled? And of course many more. Trade negotiations are a separate issue. We know currently there is an unresolved issue about market access vs immigration. That will take give and take on both sides if a deal other than defaulting to WTO is going to happen.
i don't see anything that needs to be kept secret from the voters or Parliament. The lack of clarity on our proposed Brexit terms are just a smokescreen to "we don't know"
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Patience Perrypower.....these are not issues to be brokered unilaterally but as part of the negotiations, otherwise as has already been stated many times you compromise your negotiating position.
Having said that it appears that Theresa May has already stated in general terms in PM questions in Parliament that she wishes to defend wherever possible and respect the rights both of EU citizens currently living and working in the UK (within the controls that will be outlined....controls that in the future will better identify our needs and priorities), but she is not prepared to do that unilaterally and thereby place those British currently living in Spain and elsewhere in Europe at risk of them not receiving equal treatment and consideration. It's obvious is it not?
This message was last edited by ads on 24/10/2016.
This message was last edited by ads on 24/10/2016.
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No ads. No one is saying broker them singly or unilaterally. Maybe you are satisfied waiting to see what you will be given. As a voter I expect my Government to tell me what they are proposing so I can lobby in favour or against through my elected representative. That is how parliament works. It is not a dictatorship.
Your negotiating position will not be compromised, you just don't seem to understand how the process works. There is no stealth involved. What you ae suggesting is that Expats on both sides of the channel should be used as bargaining chips. This is not a game.
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No Perrypower I am suggesting the EU bureaucrats and current stance appears to be intransigent in this regard. Therefore the "bargaining chips" have been laid down by their inflexibility to date.
Again a difference of perspective.
I agree that it should not be a game but tell that to the bureaucrats who could immediately identify if they are prepared to respect and retain mutual benefits given the requirement to regain controls in the future as mentioned in my previous posting, but I suspect at this moment in time they will decline, in which case if you are determined to identify any culpability it would be in their court.
This message was last edited by ads on 24/10/2016.
This message was last edited by ads on 24/10/2016.
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I can only guess that you are referring to not getting which of the founding principles you can pick. You can't honestly believe that the EU is going to give the UK full free market access without free movement if we trick them by not telling them that is what we want.
The EU has been categorically clear on the principles and that you take all four or get none. Fact is we have to negotiate a free trade agreement separately from leaving the EU. That is fine, but I want to know before we trigger article 50 the broad proposals to the social and financial issues outside of trade. If you are saying we can't do one without the other then the EU bureaucrat was right. Hard Brexit or no Brexit are our choices.
Are you really prepared for a hard Brexit?
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If Hard Brexit is the position then the gov needs to spell that out along with what it actually means
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You have just defined the intransigence of the EU to respond to changing circumstances brought about by EU policies that as I have identified on numerous occasions are exacerbating intolerance and disaffection with the EU in our society.
By remaining in denial to these major citizen concerns without any willingness for flexibility and rational thinking in this regard and refusing to make allowance for review given the compromising impact on our society will only sadly increase citizen's alienation.
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Fine words ads, but what are you advocating. It sounds very much to me like you want to stay in a modified EU.Today's meeting makes it plain that Scotland, Wales and Ni see the starting point of any negotiations as being full and unfettered access to the single market and that the devolved governments are briefed prior to article.50 being triggered. Currently there is no negotiating stance.
To me we are heading towards a General Election or the breakup of the Union.
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government to uphold the most infamous Brexit promise of all – £350m more a week to be spent on the NHS.
Now where does that come from? Don't say on the bus - some of us can read.
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Now all this rubbish about 'the government needs to do this that and the other' :
The Q on the paper asked "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union?"
We voted out so all the government has to do is get us out.
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No such thing as hard or soft Brexit, 'out means out', which is more succinct than 'Brexit means Brexit'.
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Did not really like the term 'remoaners' but we definitely have a couple here.
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Lot of water going under the bridge in the next couple of years - we might all be in for a surprise or two.
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"96% of Gibs voters voted to remain."
In the last referendum on the Status of Gibralter 98.9 % or residents chose not to join Spain in a referendum voted on with an 88% turnout.
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The PM has just stressed in Parliament that they are committed to Brexit (respecting the democratic vote) and there will be a series of debates in Parliament before article 50 being triggered next spring. She confirmed the Govt's intent on defining a NEW relationship with the EU.
For the moment that appears to respect the democratic vote.and we all have to be patient.
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The next General election is 3.5 years away. There is no indication that this is likely to change - indeed, without a vote of no confidence, it has to be 3.5 years away unless there is an act to release us from the Fixed Term Parliament Act.
A break up of the UK is very unlikely as Mrs May is a unionist and will hold the Scottish Nationalists to the promise made before the last referendum in Scotland. In any case the polls are running very hard against and the Nationalists know which side their bread is buttered on.
Seems to me that there are an awful lot of straws being clutched at on this board - someone must be drowning.
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Scotland will probably want go it's own way and apply for EU membership in it's own right, but will the EU have them? Northern Ireland can stay with England and Wales if they want out, or join the Republic if they want in, IMHO Wales would be a none starter in respect of direct EU membership, but who knows?
I can't see Corbyn relishing the thoughts of a general election, it would very likely reduce Labour seats which the Lib Dems would pick up, along with a handful of Tory seats, leaving the current government firmly in charge. But that's just my thoughts, and we all know what thought did.
_______________________
IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.
THANK YOU.
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Well I'd say throw me a life ring but Brexit don't have one. Or a paddle...
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