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Off topic but the Chinese are about to impose a 45% levy on a Newport manufactured special steel, just remember that when you are about to buy one of their products.
On the subject of UK steel, I just wondered what the EU's view on the current Tata debacle is, but then again it's nowhere near as important as Greek public sector workers (whoops) drawing their full pensions ar age 45 is it?
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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It's in the UK interests to play ball with China especially with the looming threat of Brexit. If that happens the UK will need all the friends it can trade with. The Tata steelworkers are expendable in the wider scheme of things.
Also it needs investment from China to build new nucear power stations because the UK cannot trust the French to deliver. They are already wobbling on the deal.
Germany is the largest steel producer in the EU and the seventh largest in the world. As a basic industry, the steel sector is of particular importance for the value-creation chains, and is the backbone of Germany’s economy. They remain competitive because they reformed their labour markets a decade ago, have economies of scale and produce steel principally for their home market industries. They don't need steel from China or sell it to them to survive..
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 02/04/2016.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Micky, I wonder what the league table of 'special/stainless' steels looks like compared to the 'crude' steel figures that you have quoted from. I do know that Sheffield/Rotherham special steel production is higher now with 3000 workers than it was with 33000 back in the 1960's.
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Which country is Germany's main export market for these home manufactured steel products and is this mostly related to their car industry?
By contrast how much of this manufactured steel is for products for home consumption?
This message was last edited by ads on 02/04/2016.
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If Britain exits the EU or EFTA they will be free and able to erect trade barriers in the form of tariffs and ensure their industries go bankrupt more quickly.
Quote from Stahl the German steel federation:
Foreign trade is an important cornerstone for the economic success of the steel industry. Germany exported a total of about 23 m. tonnes of rolled steel last year. Three-quarters of Germany’s foreign trade in steel involved trade within the EU. Steel has a positive balance when imports and exports are compared: the steel industry in Germany exported almost one million tonnes more than it imported in 2012.
With growing competitive pressure, many third countries are increasing their efforts to create artificial competitive advantages for their domestic steel industries. Examples for this increasing protectionism include targeted import duties, import licence systems or the preferential treatment of domestic producers when awarding public contracts. Emergent industrial nations, such as China or India, are especially prominent in this regard. The steel industry in Germany is resolutely against such protectionist measures. They represent a double burden for it – not only are its own exports to third countries made more difficult, but there is an increased diversion of trade flows into the EU.
The German Steel Federation supports the retention of trade protection instruments. Antidumping and anti-subsidy measures offer the only possibility for protecting the open EU market from price dumping.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Looks as though the British steel industry has been stitched up even though we're in the EU, as according to the latest news, a German company Tthyssenkrupp have been holding talks for over a year with Tata Steel re combining their continental European steel operations, as global overcapacity weighs on prices and profits!
Exactly how does the EU benefit the UK in this regard? What good are trade deals if we have little manufacturing to trade? How vulnerable do we become by this strategy that depends upon "others nations" for most manufacturing parts and materials? Am I missing something here?
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And don't forget the Germans are trying to buy the London Stock Exchange.
With their links to TaTa they would also like to get their haads on Jaguar Land Rover to dominate EU car production, something that you may not have noticed is thriving in the UK.
And it's a wonderfull idea to be in hoc to the Chinese to build HS2 and run foreign built trains.
So are we going to pander to the EU, the Chinese and to India in the name of free trade? Or stand up to ourselves and the threat from other countries who are destriying the UK econimy from outside as wekk as the immside.
Or vote out for a stronger, independant UK?
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I don’t believe the UK can prosper as an independent country free from economic ties with other nations. It did once when the world was another place and Britain dominated most of the planet. The legacy of that still resonates in the minds of Brexit campaigners. It’s an impossible dream today.
Britain is no longer a manufacturing nation. The economy is based on service industries, a deliberate policy of Conservative governments since Mrs Thatcher. The unions held the country to ransom in a way that is all too apparent today in modern France. The result of that is stagnation and the inability of a country to effectively govern itself.
Foreign investment in the country is vital to its future prosperity because the UK does not have the ability to renovate its infrastructure on its own or modernize its services. The country is already over borrowed and unless it reduces its debts, future generations will be in hoc to the last. The currency will weaken, bond yields will rise and the nation will start an economic downward spiral from which it would be difficult to recover.
The world has changed considerably since Britain produced most of the coal, steel and ships to sell to the world. We now have a global economy where emerging nations produce products at a fraction of the cost Britain could. Competition for foreign investment is intense. No nation can succeed without it and it matters not who owns its industry. Emotional nationlism has no place in modern economics.
In France no foreign company or nation can own more than 50% of the shares of a French company. Consequently France struggles to compete or move ahead in a globalised world due to a lack of sufficient foreign capital investment. Its industry lacks the flexibility,vision and dynamism of wholy owned foreign companies.
Like the UK its population harks back to another time when France was independent with colonies around the globe. However she knows full well it’s an impossible dream.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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@mikeandhelen
With their links to TaTa they would also like to get their haads on Jaguar Land Rover to dominate EU car production, something that you may not have noticed is thriving in the UK. 4
Pretty ironic considering Jaguar Land Rover is owned by Ta Ta motors of India.
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Mickeyfinn you say " Britain is no longer a manufacturing nation. The economy is based on service industries, a deliberate policy of Conservative governments since Mrs Thatcher. The unions held the country to ransom in a way that is all too apparent today in modern France. The result of that is stagnation and the inability of a country to effectively govern itself. "
Don’t you think that most people want the country to retain a balance of manufacturing and service industries, without the extremes that your statement makes reference to? Most people are now fully aware of the failures that accrue from political extremes from both sides of the equation. If anything, its not "emotional nationalism" that many are expressing, moreover it’s the desire to create a balance of self sufficiency alongside better regulated (and far more ethical) investment from those who you suggest bring " flexibility, vision and dynamism " to our economy.
Does it not appear foolhardy to be beholden to those whose investment strategies are based purely on profit, at risk of all else? Sadly, we only have to look at the behaviour of the Banking and insurance fraternity when left insufficiently regulated, and the large corporations who manipulate their financial affairs to avoid tax (at great expense to honourable tax payers), unethical bonus schemes, non compliance with regulation, and aversion to simplify and make transparent financial affairs to their customers (let alone contest claims at every eventuality), to recognise the pitfalls and vulnerabilities that come from being "controlled" by these large corporations/investors in this globalised world dependent on foreign capital investment that you make mention of Mickeyfinn.
How many of these "investors" have sufficient regard for the living standards, the security of employment and pension provision of its employees, the supply chains that are dependent on their success? The latest news appears to suggest “companies across the country could be forced to stump up for the potential rescue of the Tata-sponsored £14billion British Steel Pension Scheme” and Government sources fear that the Pension Protection Fund (PPF), which was created to safeguard the retirement savings of members of company-sponsored defined benefit (DB) schemes, will end up having to bailout the fund.
This world of globalised dependency on foreign capital investment needs to look hard and fast to the implications of such dependency, and start effectively monitoring and regulating at global level, to better avoid the pitfalls and better protect its citizens. And are the EU doing their part on our behalf?
If bringing the Banks, Insurance companies, large corporate conglomerates to task and make them far more accountable is part of that remit, or ensure European citizens are adequately protected within and across member states (adherence to the rule of law), or ensure its borders are safe with adequate systems and strategies in place to realistically deal with both the migrant crisis and make adequate provision for humanitarian aid, many would suggest they have failed in this regard, and sadly appear unwilling to reform and review a treaty that is in desperate need of speedy review.
How little we hear about adequate reform of the status quo in this equation, which gives the impression of denial of uncomfortable truths, of hidden self interests, of inability to better organise and prioritorise from within. And that’s without making mention of what is perceived by many as an undemocratic European Commission!
This message was last edited by ads on 03/04/2016.
This message was last edited by ads on 03/04/2016.
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Sorry about the change in colour in that last posting.......tried to alter but it doesn't work!
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There is some ambiguity regarding Germany's position in the steel production table, the table shows only crude steel production, and as Germany uses over 30% of it's own steel production in it's own construction industry I would like to know it's position in the special/stainless steel table. As a born Sheffielder I know that mass crude steel production ceased many years ago, fabrication crude steel production is very high density work force wise, but not so good profit wise, which is the complete opposite of special/stainless steel production, which the Sheffield firms are world leaders in.
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Is this correct that the British Govt appear to have just relaxed previous restrictions that adhered to EU regulations by instructing local councils, NHS, etc to strongly consider buying British steel (allowing greater flexibility/ speed of supply etc) as opposed to basing their procurement decisions solely on price? If so, is this in effect following in the footsteps of Germany who appear to "work around " the EU regulations?
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Ads:
I did not say I supported Britain’s policy of running down manufacturing, merely that it happened and why. There have been some attempts recently to redress the economic balance. Leaving the EU will not help one jot furthering that process. It’s not just Conservative governments who were responsible. The Unions played a significant part in demanding unsustainable and uneconomic wages and conditions for their members.
The London underground is a prime example of that. Ridiculous incomes paid for a very low skill job. However because it’s a vital public service they continue to hold Londoners to ransom.
The hard truth however is that a monetarist individualist economic ethos along the lines of the USA does actually bring lasting prosperity for a significant part of society. I acknowledge also that an investment led globalist economy leaves many relatively behind. Some social groups in every society are just not able to capitalise on opportunity. The state then has a role and a duty to ensure they have adequate provision to live a decent life. That part is often missing in the USA. It is not in most European states. In fact it’s a requirement for membership of the EU.
I believe the EU is a force for decency and fairness in the world. Without it we will have a return to red clawed unfettered capitalism that we see from China and the US.. That will be the only way a small nation such as Britain can survive outside any trade agreements.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Your 'small nation' happens to have the third largest population in the EU Micky, but I suppose that Spain having twice the UK's area makes it a large nation in your wierd reckoning.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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What a ridiculous situation exists in the run-up to the referendum - to remain in the EU or to leave it. The decision will be made by those that ´feel´ the Uk should stay in or those that ´feel´ the UK should not stay in - those that feel they do-not-know should say nothing and not vote at all - but will they??!! Unfortunately, there are also those that have feelings, but are not allowed to express them, even though they are 100% British, in every way, but have not resided in the UK for the last 15 years - and I am one such person!
I am British born in Lambeth,London, in 1930. I grew up believing Britain was the most fortunate country in the world, feeling sorry for anyone else that wasn´t. I survived the blitz, became an army cadet at the age of 13, in 1943, learning how to use a bayonet, firearms, hand-grenades, unarmed combat and disipline.
I studied hard, whilst part-time working and joined the RAF, after being deferred until I was 21, for two years compulsory service. With very reasonable studies to my name, I then started my ´career´ based on electro-mechanics. I realised that this was not for me and had the oportunity of working for an international company in sales promotion and marketing of scientific products. In 1968, I had oportunity of working with a multinational in the Netherlands, followed by seven years with them back in the UK. I then moved to them in Germany then in France. There then followed some years of free-lance work in several European countriesuntil, my retirement in 1995. Five years later, my Dutch wife and I, moved to live in Spain on a permanent basis.
What (if you have bothered to read this far) has that all got to do with Brexit or Britin? I think a lot. Why, because I have met, and made friends of, many foreign people in everyday living and working environments. All, without exception, have been very critical of how the EU is handled, how it is administered and how it is manipulated. But every foreigner has been positive in that the continuance and membership of the EU is the only way to survive in the new world-order - where previous underdog nations are now, already, in the ascendancy.
Britain can not survive alone - it does not manufacture the goods or have the capability to survive in a world of dog-eat-dog attitudes - the fight for survival, moreso in the coming years, will be vicious and merciless´ and, without the back-up of EU friends, the UK will fall into an abyss of no return. Not every Briton can be a banker, economist, IT expert, programmer, doctor, estate agent or other non producer of `three-dimensional goods´ or servile services. In fact, probably even if the division were to be 50% 50% (extremely unlikely), the situation would be untenable and, even, impossible.
On top of all this, the UK is populated by many amateurs in management that have had absolutely no formal training or educational properties to qualify them in the jobs they have, nor have they achieved the right objectives to suit their positions! Just consider how many non-British names are beginning to, and already do, appear in many responsible jobs in the UK! For the UK to even think it can survive with no external support is just as if to be living in `cloud-cukoo-land´!!
Victor
What I am saying, of course, is one who wants to stay in
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Interesting but with respect where is your agenda for EU reform and how to achieve reform given the status quo?
Realism is not only required from exit campaigners but also from the remain campaigners.
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Mickeyfinn most people would not take issue with your aspirations for the EU to be a force for decency and fairness in the world but in reality??????
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Its only possible to influence reform of an institution if you are part of it.
I could write a long essay on how the EU has been a force for good in the world since its inception. However I'm sure it would bore the socks off most of you. It did win a Nobel prize for peace some time ago.
European nations have historically always gone to war with each other. Peace has been achieved for a good seventy years. It would now be unthinkable. That's progress, don't let's turn back the clock.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Mickeyfinn, I look forward to your essay on how to adequately reform the EU given the current structure and treaty arrangements that are in force and are currently being strongly defended by the EU Commission. Likewise how the EU can realistically ensure adherence to the rule of law across member states and make powerful corporations and financial institutions far more ethical and accountable.. etc. How transparency of EU inefficiencies/ non compliance / failure to adequately monitor abuse of consumer and property rights etc can be achieved given the wide disparity between 28 member states, how trade agreements can be fairly apportioned with emphasis on adequate protection of citizens rights and living standards, etc. The list goes on!!!
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