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No I noted the point you made, which is why i called it migration and mentioned EU.
I am now thinking that you accept the EU can have less generous welfare systems in other member countries and can mitigate this by promoting migration.
I am also noting you say the integration of people between countries and cultures is a political reason, saying they share common cultures and religions. when integration is something which promotes different cultures and religions being in the same spaces, peacefully.
Nationalism, I would argue, has a basis in history as being the reaction of people feeling threatened by these values and feeling they are imposed on them, instead of being part of a natural progression or need.
Im sure we all feel some kind of nationalistic reaction to the FIFA decision to call the poppy a political statement or banner. It doesnt mean we have all gone mad, it simply means someone is telling us what to do, without good reason (we feel).
I feel that your being over simplistic and I feel the EU council is overbearing and unrealistic. If we have people in our country who can't carry out menial tasks, we deal with that problem inside our own system IMHO.
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Best wishes, Brian
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Mickey
No that's just one of the causes and the need for workers from EU partenship states where the welfare state is less generous to find a decent standard of living. There are political reasons why migration from the EU is desirable. It assists integration, education and understanding between the peoples of Europe who share a common culture, religion and social values. It helps to reduce the rise of nationalism which history shows us is a common cause of conflict.
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Two comments here, isnt the point of an EU or CommonMarket to try and maintain and keeps thevskills in the country of origin rather than its citizens seekjng work in better paid countries but to allow free movement when and IF certain skills are in short supply?
Secondly, i cant believe you have travelled much in Europe if you consider wevshare cultures and relegions.
There is a vast fiversity of culture from North to Douth not only betwenn vountries nut IN the countries themsrlvex.
In Spain alone Catalonia and the Basque region arecstill pushing for independence and language is very different.
The Uk has the Nationalists of Scotland, Wales, NI and even Cornwall.
We had the break up of the Soviet Bloque because nations want their own sovereignty and the Arab countries see the many different tribal and religious factions still fighting each other.
Nationalism appears to be growing sadly in Europe, partly due to uncontrolled immigration or Freedom to Work NOT freedom to send child benefits back home to the family.
Integration only seems to work when the "visitors" embrace the new culture into which they have moved, as with the USA, which many, not all, find difficult in Europe becsuse of thousands of years of hustory.
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briando,
Wasn't it FIFA who allowed Easter Rising centenary logos on the Republic's shirts? England and Scotland should give them the rods, wear the poppy armbands and see if the ref allows the game to be played, if he does and we and the Scots recieve a fine we should both tell them where to stuff it.
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Job vacancies and skills gaps can be filled. Uber and delivery van drivers for example?
Economic growth can be sustained. only if a new job is created, not if they are filling a job locals could do.
Services to an ageing population can be maintained when there are insufficient young people locally. Most EU countries have high youth unemployment.
The pension gap can be filled by the contributions of new young workers and they also pay taxes. then the locals go on benefits.
Immigrants bring energy and innovation. and the itinerant population dont?
Host countries are enriched by cultural diversity. True but that can create problems.
Failing schools (and those with falling numbers) can be transformed. We are having to build masses of new schools in parts of our country to cope with masses of young children and class sizes are arguably too large.
Negative
Depression of wages does occur but this seems to be temporary. Really?
Having workers willing to work for relatively low pay does allow employers to ignore productivity, training and innovation.
Migrants may be exploited. aren't most workers to the benefit of over paid CEOs and shareholders.
Increases in population does put huge pressure on public services.
Unemployment will rise if there are unrestricted numbers of incomers.
There certainly can be integration difficulties and friction with local people.
Large movements of people lead to more security monitoring.
Ease of movement may facilitate organised crime and people trafficking.
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I have spent the better part of my life travelling around the world. I have been in a fortunate position to enable me to have the time and inclination do it. It's only when you travel extensively you realise that people everywhere are basically the same with the same basic aspirations, hopes and dreams. What creates prejudice is ignorance of that and lack of exposure to other cultures encourages the narrowest view of the world. Nationalism breeds intolerance, separation and war.
The principle of the EU was a brave political attempt to try and brings Europe’s nations closer together after a century of conflict. Brexit is a sign that effort has failed at least among a percentage of people, not just in Britain but elsewhere. Politicians and far right media with an agenda have fanned the flames gaining traction for their twisted causes.
Brexit is a loss this generation will feel deeply in the years to come. I’m just glad I have benefited and experienced what might have been and may still be if people with power wake up and mobilise, realise what a negative and backward choice Brexit represents.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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briando,
Wasn't it FIFA who allowed Easter Rising centenary logos on the Republic's shirts? England and Scotland should give them the rods, wear the poppy armbands and see if the ref allows the game to be played, if he does and we and the Scots recieve a fine we should both tell them where to stuff it.
Destry. I agree with you, I think we should.
Am I too nationalistic though! I actually think we acheived more historically through challange and resistance than we ever did through concession and acquiesence.
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Best wishes, Brian
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Mickeyfinn,
With regard to the knock on effects from freedom of movement, aren't we looking for a balance here, where the gap between the high and low earners is fair rather than skewed towards CEOs and Bankers who are already coming under criticism for being excessively "greedy" and unaccountable, but balanced to incentivise growth, profit with compliance to regulatory standards?
Likewise the need to address reform of the welfare state to ensure system abuse is regulated, but never at the expense of losing the civilised and caring society that we have prided ourselves on over the years.
What appears to have happened in these recent years, as evidence has been gathered and analysed, is that large scale and unplanned for migration occurred so swiftly as to open up a Pandora's box of unintended consequences. These consequences must not, nor should be overlooked in the upcoming debates and negotiations.
1) In-work benefits intended to incentivise benefit dependants ( nationals) back to work, have been used by migrants to assist the costs of housing ( rentals) which ironically was exacerbated by the consequential over supply of renters chasing too few homes, causing rents to rise (which benefited landlords not citizens).
2). The major proliferation of zero hour contracts and part time unskilled workers has been identified as non fiscally viable to our economy and has compromised citizens working and wage structures in that process.
3). Failure by Govt to adequately monitor and administer a viable system within our health service to correctly reclaim costs from the relevant EU countries, exacerbating an already overstretched health service.
4) Failure by the EU council to recognise growing pressures from large scale movement of people and adequately forward plan to respond to swift increases in unemployment across member states by reviewing workable strategies to encourage growth (diversification, advancement of new technologies. etc).
5). Major proliferation of EU crime resulting in large statistical increases of EU inmates in prisons, without ability to repatriate back to EU member states (European Court of Justice challenged attempts to address this problem).
6). Failure by Govt to retain stability mechanisms introduced to provide extra resources to areas compromised by large numbers of migrants ( albeit, never envisaged to be on such a large scale).
7). Intransigence by EU bureaucrats to review the need for transient controls to mitigate growing unrest and disillusionment from all of the above, but also failure by Govt to address their failures to act equally effectively in this sorry saga of events. I.e. culpability exists on both sides to resolve the problems that have unfairly compromised innocent citizens.
To ignore these uncomfortable realities and refuse to demonstrate a willingness to resolve them will only accentuate citizens disillusionment.
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So your statement that the EU needs Britain is simply untrue. The costs of Brexit for Britain are going to be considerable. Maybe it’s a price worth paying for they who swallowed Farage's pifflle that they ‘wanted their country back’.
Why do we get these continuing statements without any Justification?
The EU certainly does need Britain and judging by the statements by national politicains from the EU (not EU functionaries) they realise this. The EU is less without us and needs us more than we need them. It is a pity they were unable to assimilate our values.
Statement like 'the costs of Brexit are going to be considerable' mean nothing, they are just statements. The costs of staying in the EU are demonstratably loss of freedom and democracy. Those of us that believe the UK has made the right decision also believe that we will be more agile economically and do better out. Time will tell, not empty statements.
Not a great fan of Nigel but just saying his statements are piffle is not an argument. However, I did want my country back, it was being subsumed into an undemocratic, bureaurocratic and corrupt morass.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 02/11/2016.
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Rememberance
I agree with the previous posters.
The poppy is neither a political or religeous symbol (the FIFA grounds for removing it). It remembers those that died in the cause of freedom. Remembers the years they gave for us. Remembers the years they gave when they may have been budding footballers.
Over recent years, as it should be and as time goes by we have started, in reconcilliation, to celibrate the lives of all those that died.
These people gave their lives for us.
Of course our players should ignor this petty descision.
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tteedd It remembers those that died in the cause of freedom
(Sorry for going off thread)
I agree with the idea of wearing a poppy, but tteedd your comment could open a can of worms. In many countries yesterday’s terrorists are today’s ruling parties.
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Interesting post. What does the poppy mean to different people.
For me, I travelled through France and Belgium borderland in the 1970's and happened on the graves of the soldiers from WW1. It just happened that the seasonal poppy was out in some fields at that time and the immense number of well kept graves and graveyards just completely stopped me in my tracks.
To me it will always mean a connection to the people who fought for me and my future life (and my kids and yours etc).
Even a white poppy for those people who don't agree with any war is acceptable in my eyes, wear both if you wish.
It is not political in any way to me, so why is FIFA saying it is?
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Best wishes, Brian
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Why is the wearing, or not, of poppies at a football match in the Brexit thread?
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So with the legal challenge succeeding I guess Brexit will be on a go slllooooowwwww
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Why is the wearing, or not, of poppies at a football match in the Brexit thread?
I suppose because it's topical. it has European roots, it was brought up on here, its accused to be political and its a good subject,,,,,,,,,,,,and it makes a change from the point after point and page after page of peoples opinions based on cut and paste research!
It seemed lkike a reasonable thing to do, sorry if it upset you in any way.
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Best wishes, Brian
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What has European roots? I wear my poppy to remember those who died all around the world. FIFA is the International body, not the European one and one of the biggest (and stupid) complaint comes from a Nigerian. By all means start a different thread.
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I agree mariedav. Start a new thread if you want to debate poppies. In the meantime let's get reaction from the High Court decision on Article 50.
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Lord chief justice rules that Parliament decides ... Govt is being told by independent judiciary to respect the founding principle.... the Supremacy of Parliament i.e. Parliament only can give rights and take them away.
This is perceived by those who brought the case as a victory for Parliamentary democracy. Parliament have the say on the triggering of article 50. The person bringing the case to the High Court voted for Brexit but considered this of great constitutional significance.
So will there now be a substantive motion vote in house of commons to demonstrate they have been consulted? Will they appeal ?
The suggestion is that the Govt will win that vote as MPs respect their constituents wishes as per the referendum vote.
Will this be a quick vote or become bogged down in legislation? Clarity required quickly? If legislation is reqd then delays will be inevitable as they scrutinise any law which could for instance request Parliament to have the right to scrutinise the terms of agreement.
So now we have to wait and see how the Govt proceed.
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Spot on ads. But this is not going to be a quick process. The government in there wisedom will probably appeal to Supreme Court who will not over rule the High Court. The government will then have to introduce it to the Commons who will not give a rubber stamp but insist on full legislation. This will take 9 to 12 months and contain many caveats that need to be met to Trigger Article 50.
It does not mean it will prevent Article 50 from being triggered, but will more likely result in a call for a General Election to confirm the Country's position. It looks more likely that 2020 will be the earliest that Brexit occurs but at least it will be properly managed...open not secret.
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What has European roots? I wear my poppy to remember those who died all around the world. FIFA is the International body, not the European one and one of the biggest (and stupid) complaint comes from a Nigerian. By all means start a different thread.
Yes the poppy was first started as a symbol of the soldiers who died in the European conflict 1914-1918, it was after the great war involving the European Nations. The aftermath of the 39-45 conflict led Winston Churchill to put forward the form the articles on Human Rights and promote what is now known as the EU.
The poppy is absolutely a European issue, however if you dont want to add to the post thats absolutely fine. It started yesterday with reference to FIFA. The Nigerian spokeswoman you mentioned to be stupid, is from Syria isnt she? and she has missed the central point, although I wouldnt call her stupid at all, she seems quite intelligent to me.
FIFA is a world body yes, football is a european game taken over by them in international status. They are targeting European nations here.
Seems to be part of the European brexit persona, but if it troubles you, forget it was ever mentioned, Im sure you will have more important things to say right now, please carry on.
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Best wishes, Brian
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