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Utterly undemocratic with a centrist command economy.
It bears no relationship to the EU
mmmm
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You missed the plague of locusts that are waiting on the side lines to invade when we leave.
Got that directly from number 10...So it has to be true.
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Well it's now wages could be £38.00 p/w lower by 2030 if Brexit succeeds, I wonder what the weather will be like and what the winning lottery numbers will be. This comes from the TUC's General Secretary, Frances O'Grady
Coming at a time when wages are being held down by immigration, it just shows that, as always, many union leaders are political animals with little interest in the welfare of their members.
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Brexit will not change Britain's compliances to human rights laws or conventions.
Membership of the EU obliges us to be subject to the European court of human rights.
If we leave the EU we will be free to put human rights legislation into our domestic law where it can be interpreted by qualified Judges rather than redundant politicians
This message was last edited by tteedd on 01/06/2016.
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Sit back and sensibly look at whats happening in the UK right now and then wonder if the EU has had anything to do with it.
Losing more Police...More Fire Fighters...Business's closing down...Council Tax rising...Unemployment is rising...Fuel is rising...Hospitals have no money...Doctors have no money...House Repossessions rising...So much more is happening, to much to note...And what does seem like the common denominator...
Lack of funds...Money...Call it how you want...
What seems to be the biggest outgoing expenditure for the UK...The EU...
Has the bulk of this happened since we joined? To the 'Inners' no doubt 'No'
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Whenever we visit Spain we run accross improvements, that in many cases are EU initiatives, the Mijas Costa Boardwalk being a good example. There are more businesses opening than closing, the AP-7 makes the MI look like a cart track, and there are visible police officers at work, unlike the odd Blunkett bobby back in the UK, what do our real police officers do these days? We now have pop concerts in what was one of the largest rolling mills in the world, has EU money ever saved any UK businesses from closure?
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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Biggest ougoing expenditure is to the EU? Rubbish. Foreign aid accounts for half as much again as the EU payments. And @tteedd. ECHR membership for the UK happened long before we joined the EU. Pulling out of the EU would not change that until parliament voted to withdraw. Firstly they'd have to repeal the Human Rights Act 1998 introduced by Tony Blair which gives the ECHR its powers over UK so you are wrong when you say "If we leave the EU we will be free to put human rights legislation into our domestic law where it can be interpreted by qualified Judges rather than redundant politicians". We already have done so.
Don't introduce red herrings like that. The ECHR has nothing to do with the EU as you well know. Even Russia is bound by the ECHR.
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Biggest ougoing expenditure is to the EU? Rubbish.
Your correct it is rubbish, thats why I did mention....So much more is happening, to much to note.
I don't have the knowledge, or the means to quote chapter and verse on the EU expenditure and the UK's outgoings, everyone knows what the UK pays out but the EU costs are one of the main stories right now.
I wont be picky but for starters why not include Free Mobility Cars, Free Council tax, Free Holidays, Free Housing.. ect etc and so on.
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That doesn't appear to cater for the increases in population from free movement of EU citizens who either en masse found themselves (through no fault of their own) unemployed in their homelands (Spain Portugal Italy etc) and further exacerbated by Eastern Europeans where the income values of the UK exceeded their homelands and therefore became incentivised to find work in the UK, where the economy had gradually become more buouyant after suffering the consequences from the Banking crisis.
BUT (big but), the subsequent impact of such unplanned and swift movement of people has placed enormous pressure on education, health, provision of housing, and downward spiral of wages, job opportunities, ability to pay off the coutry's debt etc. all undermining the gradual progress made since that Banking crisis which has now resulted in redirection of monies to cater for this sudden and unplanned influx, hence the frustrations with this EU policy and the perceived lack of control under EU rules to control the continuing influx.
p.s. Here's some info re
Brexit and a British Bill of Rights: four scenarios for human rights
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/brexit-and-a-british-bill-of-rights-four-scenarios-for-human-rights/
This message was last edited by ads on 01/06/2016.
This message was last edited by ads on 01/06/2016.
This message was last edited by ads on 01/06/2016.
This message was last edited by ads on 01/06/2016.
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Baz, you said biggest outgoing expenditure for UK. EU costs a little less than 0.5% of UK GDP and foreign aid target is 0.7% of GDP.
If you're now including inside spending then the welfare budget is well higher than the EU total budget let alone UK contribution. And don't even look at the NHS, the UK EU payments would probably keep it going for about 4 days. The last goverment spent two years worth of EU payments on a health computer system that was scrapped because it didn't work. Almost 4 years worth (estimated) of payments to get 20 minutes knocked off the London to Birmingham time with the high speed rail link.
EU expenditure doesn't even come in the top 10 of government expenditure. Pensions cost £153 billion a year, Welfare £110 billion, Defence £45 billion, Education £89 billion, Health £173 billion.
Makes the EU payments seem like peanuts.
Bojo and company now saying they'll introduce a rule where anyone coming to UK will have to speak English. Imagine if the French and Spanish had a similar rule regarding speaking French and Spanish? Millions more back to UK to claim pension credits, health and social housing.
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ECHR membership for the UK happened long before we joined the EU.
True - never said otherwise.
We need to repeal Blairs Act and incorporate the relevant rights into domestic law.
Something that we cannot do in the EU - as I said.
Not sure Russia is bound by anything.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 01/06/2016.
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EU payments would probably keep it going for about 4 days
Try 71.5 days
Not sure I agree with the expenditure on HS2 but at least the benefits will be with us for years, not poured down the drain.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 01/06/2016.
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Russia has been fined at least twice this year by the ECHR. There are 47 countries who have signed up to the ECHR so, as said, nothing to do with the EU.
So you want domestic law (HRA 98) to be abolished and replaced with another domestic law? We are also a signatory to the UN charter of fundamental human rights. Should we pull out of that as well?
Great country you want UK to become. Pull out of the EU, repeal all the Human Rights legislation. Regardless of how we would look to the rest of the world?
Total red herring.
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'There you go'
Telling me what I want. Just stick what I say I want.
Russia already has a law allowing it to ignor the rulings of the EHCR.
I want the citizens of the UK to have the protection of human rights legislation. I just want it interpreted by qualified people with no political axe to grind. Sadly we do not have that at the moment. In addition we have a court that extends its remit to areas outside it's jurisdiction.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 01/06/2016.
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Oh dear, did Boris suggest English being required for service industries, or across the board, Mariedav?
I can understand the need to speak English within all the service industries or work that depends upon the ability to communicate (likewise for Spain).
I understand your points about the UK Govt's failures (we're all frustrated by that to be honest!) but it's difficult to assess those figures you provided, Mariedav, as when do they relate to, plus in the case of education, NHS and welfare, presumably they include monies that were required to also cater for the mass of migrants already here?
I wonder if there are stats that we can believe to demonstrate how they have increased over the years since migration has rapidly increased, and what impact this has had on our spending (in terms of comparing actual monies spent).
But as stressed before, its not solely about money, although standard of living is important, its also about the impact on society, the land we live in, traditional values, community living, but this applies equally to Spain too.
I often wonder how frustrated the Spaniards must have been to see thousands of properties being built that now subsequently lie empty or derelict, that they couldn't afford (but maybe now with lowering of property values), to witness their youngsters subjected to unemployment on such a large scale, and have little option but to travel abroad for work, etc, to witness the political corruption on their doorsteps, to see the proliferation of bars and outlets that pay little respect to their own culture, etc. To failures of integration etc.
All swift change but all relevant of course to whether these changes have ultimately improved or lowered their standard of living or on the whole improved their lot. And therein lies the rub in the comparison between the benefits/failures of Spain and the UK.
I came across this observation the other day
http://www.blog.rielcano.org/en/global-spectator-30-years-later-is-the-eu-becoming-too-narrow-for-spain/
"Shared sovereignty, and the essential condition for Spain of being a Member State, is a way of preventing abuses and excesses: it is a guarantee. Although it was no impediment to past colossal mistakes like the construction and financial bubbles. Today such a situation would be less likely to occur since bank supervision, mistrusted at the national level, has now been transferred to the European Central Bank. Meanwhile, monetary union has become a union of fiscal discipline that has constrained Spanish public expenditure. This has provided some benefits, but also some negative effects. Spanish public policies today are framed by the parameters set in Europe, especially in the Eurozone, of which the country is a member. But there is scant talk of this in Spain’s sharp political debate.
This poses a problem for democracy, since an important part of national democracy is becoming void of content while not being replaced by more European democracy. This is not usually talked about in Spain perhaps because, as I heard a British diplomat comment long ago, Spaniards believe in Europe because they do not believe in their own institutions. Spaniards prefer the guarantee of acting sensibly being imposed from outside, something which, on the other hand, also suits governments that need to take unpopular decisions." " For Spain it has also been an instrument of change and modernisation and, even if not having added anything to democracy, it has enhanced the rule of law".
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The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development has downgraded its UK growth forecast this year by more than any other major advanced economy as it said a Brexit vote would send shockwaves across the globe.
The Paris-based think-tank also issued a stark warning on the global economy. It said its fragile state meant that even a small negative shock could "tip the world back into another deep downturn".
The need for action by governments to boost output was now "urgent" in order to stop the world becoming stuck in a low growth trap and generations of workers both young and old being left permanently poorer.
I have come to the conclusion that Brexit supporters just simply don't care about any of the economic warnings by respected institutions. The reason may be that most of them are older and have sufficient financial resources to weather any financial storm the UK may suffer afterwards. House paid for so the drop in value does not matter. Gold plated guaranteed pensions, so exchange rates do not matter. They believe their generation is insulated from an economic down turn.
Well I have news for them all. It does matter and it will. A Brexit vote might win the battle but the war is coming to a place near you.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Brexit supporters just simply don't care about any of the economic warnings by respected institutions.
Someone else deciding what others think! Although this one has a lot of form.
I should imagine that Brexit supporters don't believe in fairy tales. Or scare stories.
Economics is not a science. Even if it was, if you put in biased input you get biased output. Organisations that have got it wrong in the past are not to be respected.
I would suggest you discard all reports from economists that have got it wrong in the past.
You will not be left with many.
The only one that I know that got it right in the early 80's (Thatchers economic policies) and in the 90's (the ERM) is Dr Patrick Minford.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 01/06/2016.
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"Well you would say that wouldn't you."? Mandy Rice Davis.
So the worlds institutions are all wrong. May as well rid ourselves of them eh? Britain doesn't need them. Britain can stand alone. Britain is different. Shakespear thought so too:-
This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,--
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.
King Richard II", Act 2 scene 1
Except during the period of history he was writing about then, France was actually part of England and ruled by England's Kings..
Let the chickens come home to roost. Let the damage be done. Britain will suffer but I shall enjoy watching the Brexit camp politicians fade away in long embarrassment told you so's ringing loud in their ears, along with the UK economy. I shall be poorer but at least there are compensations.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 01/06/2016.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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"Well you would say that wouldn't you."? Mandy Rice Davis.
She actually said "Well he would wouldn't he"
Indicating that Lord Astor would say that which suited him, like your 'respected institutions'.
Thank you.
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Methinks tteedd you are confusing Patrick Minford with Milton Friedman, Thatcher’s favourite economist.
Thatcher was actually a supporter of the EU and the single market and signed many treaties leading towards further integration for the UK. She fought many battles to get the UK a better deal that’s all. I believe she would support Cameron if she were alive today. Mrs T would certainly not be seen dead on the same platform as Nigel Lawson her failed Chancellor.
Patrick Minford is a mouth piece for the Brexit camp and a lifelong opponent of all things European. I am hardly surprised you believe he is the only economist worthy of his salt. You have selective vision.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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