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tteedd,
#3 by overall olympic medals since games began, #5 by per capita wealth, we are #6 by overall wealth but #5 if you include drugs and prostitution, #6 by education overall, #20 by population, #26 by gender equality (sad really), #33 by income equality (embarrasing), #43 in maths (we did well in the English tests I guess), #78 by land mass (hey its not our fault we gave Canada and India away and the 'Mericans stole the USA from us) and we came below the top ten at an average IQ of 100, just ahead of the US (at 98 they are ranked 19th), but we are below most other countries in Europe (so if we let more EC'ers in we get smarter) 
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For those wanting independent facts on the EU referendum, thought you might be interested in this from 38degrees campaign group.........
"38 Degrees shouldn’t pick a side, and should stay firmly independent instead. As one member put it: “This is an opportunity for the British public to make an informed decision. 38 Degrees needs to inform the public about the facts so that they can make these decisions.”
Based on all these results, our people-powered plan for the referendum is taking shape. We decided together to do what we do best - stay out of the party politics, use people power to cut through the spin on both sides - and give voters the chance to get the real facts. "
This referendum could be a huge moment for people power. Unlike the elections where we elect our MPs, every vote in a referendum is equal, no matter how close the race is where you live. And with millions of us working together, 38 Degrees members could have real power to make sure that every vote cast is based on the facts, rather than biased political spin.
We know that we make our best plans when we work together. And we know that democracy, and our country’s future, is too important to leave to politicians. That’s where we come in - and it starts today.
see https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/campaigns/710 for further details.
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Thanks for that ads. I had a look at their material. As you know they have only made a decision to be neutral as a group at this juncture so we don't know what they will actually present us with. I commend their transparency in showing what their membership intentions on voting is right now. 28% in. 13% out. 52% Neutral (I am not sure if that means they feel it does not matter whether we are in or out or don't intend to vote, which seems odd to me given the nature of their 'voice') 2% don't know (undecided) and 4% don't want to get involved.
All of us will of course welcome non-biased information, however I am not sure how you can objectively judge, debunk and present the emotive issues that are tied up in the issue. Again, thank you for the link!
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If a person is politically savvy or aware then it’s the nature of the beast to either be in one camp or another. I suspect the 'undecided' or 'don't knows' never involve themselves in any political issues.
Britain has been a member of the European Union for generations. People can surely easily work out for themselves if the benefits of membership out balance the negatives or the opposite by simple engagement with the facts. It’s not difficult to understand.
One problem in grasping that understanding is maybe so many generations have grown up knowing nothing else but being part of Europe. They take the prosperity it brings for granted and perhaps believe its Britain alone in the world that creates it.
I, as a committed ‘stay’ voter am worried that apathy will rule in the referendum and only the committed ‘outs’ will vote in large numbers. That is one reason I am so against referendums elections. It is a dereliction of the system of government.
The very moment DC and his advisers agreed to hold one to silence the EU bashers in his party once and for all they put the very prosperity of Britain on the line.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 15/03/2016.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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I think the undecided and dont knows are now starting to realise its important to become educated to the facts, but are disillusioned that all too often there are hidden motives/agendas associated with hiding the true facts, or that powerful self interested parties make the issues so complex to purposefully confuse (the last financial crisis was a classic example of that). ....
The number of people who distrust the current means of gaining information in this EU debate is sadly indicative of political leaders and politicians who for whatever reason lose their ethical reasoning when financial incentives (or their own personal political aspirations) become the be-all and end-all of all decision making, without paying due regard to the society for whom they represent and are supposed to protect....
IMHO citizens' general contentment, social stability, safety and legal protection within EU member states should never be overlooked by those who represent them, and is all too often sadly sacrificed in their decision making. Most people appear to place happiness and a more balanced (and caring) civilised society far higher in the list of priorities than the politicians sometimes give them credit for but perhaps that's a topic for another day!
This message was last edited by ads on 15/03/2016.
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'Britain has been a member of the European Union for generations.'
And I'm Methusala.
They take the prosperity it brings for granted.
Now we know the EU is your religion. The EU may have brought prosperity to Greece for a while and is probably bringing marginal prosperity to the depressed economies of Eastern Europe now. But is clear the the EU is holding back all and particularly those in the common currency. We do not expect to get the growth rate that China or India has been experiencing but if we leave the EU the current situation shows what we can do even with the shackles on.
'That is one reason I am so against referendums elections.'
Heath did not give the people a say when we went in to the EEC. The reason we are in the mess we are in now. If he had, a large part of the Conservative party and the whole of the labour party would have campaigned against entry.
We elect government to govern but increasingly they feel they can play fast and loose with our democracy, freedoms and the constitution.
Constitutional matters demand at the very least a referendum.
DC and his advisers .......................................... put the very prosperity of Britain on the line.
Exactly my sentiments - it did not take much of an edit!
The EU Growth rate is way behind ours. But see what we can really do when we remove the the dragnet of EU regulation.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 15/03/2016.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 15/03/2016.
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Actually we have been a member of the EU for 1.13 generations.
This message was last edited by Hephaestus on 15/03/2016.
_______________________
I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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I won't argue with that - 1.125 would seem too pedantic!
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Ttedd you say " "The EU Growth rate is way behind ours. But see what we can really do when we remove the the dragnet of EU regulation."..... I hope you aren't referring to removal of Banking regulation in that statement!
This message was last edited by ads on 15/03/2016.
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"Men willingly believe what they wish to be true".
Julius Ceaser, Roman statesman.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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That's very true Micky, a bit like your vastly exaggerated GENERATIONS post. 
_______________________
I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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To be pedantic, 'Britain has been a member of the European Union for generations'. 1.72 to be precise. (43 years)
Quote from The International Genetic Genealogy:
Just how long is a generation? Don’t we all know as a matter of common knowledge that it generally averages about 25 years from the birth of a parent to the birth of a child, even though it varies case by case? And wasn’t it closer to 20 years in earlier times when humans mated younger and life expectancies were shorter? Where did those numbers come from?
Several recent studies by a sociologist-demographer and groups of population geneticists and biological anthropologists show that male-line generations, from father to son, are always longer on average than female-line generations, from mother to daughter. They show, too, that both are longer than the 25-year interval that conventional wisdom has assigned to a generation. The male generation is at least a third longer, the female generation is longer by perhaps half that amount.
In genealogy, the length of a generation in the past has been used principally as a check on the credibility of evidence — too long a span between parent and child, especially in a maternal line, has been reason to go back and take a more careful look at whether the received information reflects the actual reality, or whether a generation has been omitted or data for two different individuals attributed to the same person. For that purpose, the accepted 25-year average has worked quite acceptably.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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** EDITED - Against forum rules **
This message was last edited by eos_moderators on 3/18/2016 12:36:00 PM.
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I have a very varied and interesting life thank you very much. I take part in this subject only because it potentially will impact all expats who live in Europe. It is also one of the most important poltical decision this generation of Brits will make.
Twas not I that made an issue of ‘generations’ but others.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Seems to me that this thread is drifting in the wrong direction at times
I have read most of the posts - some good some not so good.
Very little facts on what will happen whichever way the UK votes and nothing that will influence my decision in the vote and I will be voting to stay in the EU and hope that EU reforms will go ahead.
I would fully support further integration of all EU nations with equality for all EU citizens in every aspect with central EU budgets especially for key areas such as health, education, work, benefits, taxes, housing, pensions and even defence.
IMO a fully united reformed EU would have so much to offer for prosperity and growth without all of this inequality, bul***t sovereignty and greed that currently exists.
If this means subsidising and supporting poorer areas then so be it – no different to what many individual states currently do now
I would have no problem being run by an elected EU govt voted by EU citizens. Would be no different to any govt I have lived under and may even be better
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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It wasn't me Miss, it was someone else, I never said a word, I'm a good little boy.
Of course you are Micky. 
This message was last edited by Hephaestus on 16/03/2016.
_______________________
I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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Twas not I that made an issue of ‘generations’ but others.
Twas so. You naughty boy.
(The EU was established in 1993).
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Telegraph today:
The Bank of England has warned that a vote on the UK’s membership of the European Union poses risks to economic growth, in a move that sees the central bank become increasingly active in the political debate.
Members of the Bank’s Monetary Policy Committee - which vote on interest rates - said that concerns about a possible Brexit had weighed on the pound, and may “also delay some spending decisions and depress growth of aggregate demand in the near term”.
“There appears to be increased uncertainty surrounding the forthcoming referendum on UK membership of the European Union,” the MPC said in a statement published after its latest meeting, which finished on Thursday morning.
It continued: “That uncertainty is likely to have been a significant driver of the decline in sterling”.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 17/03/2016.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Micky, I refer you to your Julius Ceasar quote.
The followng is attributed to both Mark Twain and Benjamin Disraeli.
Statistics, statistics and damn lies.
_______________________
I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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Except we are dealing with "The Court" of the BOE and statistics (technicals) is only part of what they look at. In the instance described they are looking at fundamentals. Big difference Hephaestus. Remember get your facts right before you distort them.
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