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Here is a simple stab at a plan that could have been agreed and released by the UK gvt prior to the vote. It is not comprhensive and I am certainthere is alot more and more questions but surley these intellginet MP's could have done something similar with a bit more detail and even spin instead of the childish spats, tit for tat debates and media crap we were inundated with
Travel
UK expect travel to and from EU member states for UK citizens holding a valid UK passport will not change.
The UK has no plans to introduce Visa entry to the UK for EU citizens traveling to the UK.
However, some states may insist on a new visa requirement for UK citizens to enter their state – the UK govt will address these on a case by case basis.
As UK citizens you will no longer have the right to live or work in an EU member state without meeting the requirements of that member state.
The UK govt envisages that EU member states will use similar processes to what other non EU nationals must do if they wish to work or live in the that member state (e.g. USA, Australia, South African, Turkey etc.)
EU citizens will no longer have the right to live and work in the UK unless they meet the UK immigration rules and the UK govt envisages a similar system as to what currently exists for citizens of non EU member states (e.g. USA, Australia, South African, Turkey etc.) entering the UK to live or work
The UK govt cannot guarantee that the existing UK citizens living in EU member states will able to continue to live and work unless they can meet the requirements of that member’s state
EU citizens currently living and working in UK must prove eligibility to live and work in the UK under the requirements similar to current non EU citizens living and working in the UK
Reciprocal and bilateral agreements
The UK govt will endeavour to maintain the current agreements with individual EU member states unless any individual state wishes to renegotiate which will be looked at on a case by case basis.
The UK envisages that the EHIC card system will still operate. However as is normal the advice for any travel is to ensure that UK citizens have appropriate travel insurance
Single Market
The UK will come out of the single market (using article 127) and use existing WTO trading rules to trade with EU member states.
Based on current rates the govt estimates that this will increase import and export cost by an average of 15% (some goods have zero rating whilst others attract up to 35%) plus local taxes (VAT, IVA HST etc.)
The UK will endeavour to obtain better deals with certain countries but a zero tariff system will not exist.
The UK govt will not provide any subsidies for UK businesses to offset this cost
Passport banking will not be available to UK businesses
Subsidies and funding for science, research, housing, infrastructure, transport, education farming fishing etc. will be subject to a full internal UK review
Any net savings from the UK current net contributions to the EU will be used to pay off the national debt
EU Debt / Credit
The UK govt wild endeavour to minimise and fees, subsidies, grant claw backs etc. due to the EU and maximise any monies owed to the UK from the EU
Membership of NATO
Will not be affected
Support for overseas 3rd world countries
Will not be affected
UK policy on refugee, political asylum immigration
will not be affected
Taxes
These will be revisited during the UK’s normal budget process.
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Hi to all and hope you had a pleasant Xmas. :)
Surprised to see no break in postings on Xmas day and Boxing Day. 
Mickeyfinn,
And once entered into this “club” , such little thought has been given by those professing to “manage and oversee” this club, originally intended to be a common trading entity ( but subsequently changed with different intent as to its political nature, its raison d’etre, supposedly taking into account differences in currency, benefit systems, Govt debts, standard of living, socio - economic structures and standards, etc). All without sufficient thought and forward planning as to how it moves forward in such a manner to fairly and rationally accommodate its citizens’ best interests, each with their own differing needs, priorities and aspirations.
Under the nature of agreement EU citizens supposedly came to the UK for work, and reciprocal arrangements were put in place to allow freedom to move across member states in such a manner as to act as a mutually beneficial counter balance for those states suffering high unemployment levels as opposed to other member states with businesses/industries suffering labour/skills shortages. The intention being from the outset to devise a mutually beneficial system from which each side gains in equal measure.
Unfortunately as has been demonstrated under the existing system certain member states appear to have suffered as a consequence, not benefitted, leading to growing citizen unrest when their voices were left unheeded.
I would ask the question, what does every logical “counter balance” system have inbuilt as a prerequisite to successful functioning?….It has predefined controls and checks in place, a workable effective monitoring and regulatory system, with trusted overseers to act in a fair and competent manner, with sufficient inbuilt flexibility to cater for changing circumstances, but within predefined tolerances ( stability mechanisms) to counter abuse and unfair benefit, to ensure that mutual benefit is retained such that no one member state impacts another in such a manner as to destabilise.
If such a counter balance system fails or becomes open to abuse, then it's essential to pinpoint where it is failing and fine tune the system to ensure that the original intent for a mutually beneficial outcome is not compromised.
The EU system in this case appears to have failed miserably on several counts.
There has been insufficient thought and forward planning given to the differentials between member states to realistically account for the “pull factors” that distort the balance mechanism and result in swift movements of people. Too little thought given to the need for adequate timeframes to realistically prepare for such mechanisms to work effectively. I.e. sufficient time to make provision for, on the one hand the inevitable demands on a recipient state's ability to accommodate an incoming labour force i.e. forward planning of housing, education, health provision and the like, whilst on the other hand make adequate remedial plans to tackle large scale unemployment, I.e. diversification of economies, strategies to promote growth for member states stripped of their labour force.
IMHO, neither of these essential prerequisites given all their complex differentials have been effectively managed or adequately accounted for in the form of balancing mechanisms, so in hindsight it was always bound to fail.
The UK benefit system being just one example where the differentials between member states appears to have sadly led to a call for a standardised system which fails to take into account the major differences in social structure and means by which a fair balance is attained and retained. For instance the UK has at its core a caring benefit system designed to make provision for those on low incomes or families suffering hardship for whatever reason, but wherever possible to incentivise their nationals into work ( in-work benefits, tax credits, housing allowances within predefined criteria) to make provision for families in the form of child benefits in line with UK living standards, whilst at the same time with intent to disincentivise abuse of the benefit system (major reform currently in progress).
It was not intended for those non nationals whose own system did not make equal benefit provision for their own workforce and families ( without some form of differential inbuilt factoring). Nor for those whose main income was not assisting the member state in terms of tax contributions and spending power etc. (without effective monitoring of money transfers in order to recognise money laundering, or large scale patterns of remittances ). Nor was it intended to become a tourist benefit system.
Errors and mismanagement on both sides of the channel yes, but the system as it stands is significantly flawed and has alienated a large swathe of citizens within the current EU and left all too many disaffected and distrustful of those who were responsible to oversee such a " union".
This message was last edited by ads on 27/12/2016.
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Ads
Pretty good post but one isseu
............ but wherever possible to incentivise their nationals into work ( in-work benefits, tax credits, housing allowances within predefined criteria) to make provision for families in the form of child benefits in line with UK living standards, whilst at the same time with intent to disincentivise abuse of the benefit system (major reform currently in progress).
It was not for UK nationals but UK residents as the system is residency based and during its incepton there were (and still are) many non UK nationals resident in UK having the same issues as UK nationals living in the UK
As I have said before a central EU fund for ALL benefits is a possible answer for all which will give equality and it coudl even be betterd than the UK system by adding factors basedon cost of living in that area.
As ana exmaple housing benefits in London far exceed housing benefits in say Hull but JSA, social and child benefit payments etc which are the same across the UK
Major reform in the UK is long overdue
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Briando,
Actually I was focusing on the facts, not your mythology, but I suppose being a citizen of the Socialist Republic of South Yorkshire, you can be forgiven for your lack of knowledge of rural traditions, even those that have been tightly and legally regulated.
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Ha ha. Come on destry keep up.
I think you refer to the people's republic of South Yorkshire, that's what the tories knick named it in the 70's.
I live close to the last of the summer wine place if you know it, it don't get much more real and rural than that, although I haven't gone down a hill in a bathtub for some time now.
We used to have all the trappings round here you know, the ducking stools, the young lads up chimneys, the plague, all the stuff that was going on, we ad it.
Foxhunting and shooting birds that are bred for setting free in front of blokes with guns is not something people do anymore round ere (not people we talk to much anyway!).
I'm thinking the mythology you talk about is that killing foxes one at a time with gangs of people on horseback and packs of hounds, and blaring horns, is a useful and economical or purposeful way of keeping the fox population in check Like most of the traditions some hold dear to them, it's pretty stupid bu***it
We have clay pigeon shoots round here though, but I don't know about dragging carpets round for dogs to chase. I did say I thought those things were pointless, not traditional at all, just pointless.
Send me a passport photo and I will see about making you a member of the PROSY, if your 'game'.
This message was last edited by briando55 on 27/12/2016.
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Best wishes, Brian
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I've played football in Penistone and Stocksbridge, so not that far off, good footballers out there, Penistone Church and Stocksbridge Park Steels come to mind, as do the injuries. 😁
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IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.
THANK YOU.
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Yep. Some good football players in those places. I played Sunday league for years but not to those standards.
John Stones attended and played at Penistone Grammer school. And of course Jamie Vardy played at Stocksbridge a few years ago.
I played a bit of cricket at Monk Bretton second team and guess who played there, dickie bird, Darren gough, Martin moxon, Arnie sidebottom. Not bad for a little village eh. Ha
sorry. I get boring when I get proud!!!! And the brexit police will be telling me to stay on thread
This message was last edited by briando55 on 27/12/2016.
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Best wishes, Brian
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The one area I disagree on is that modern communications allow the public to have the facts. We had a campaign of referendum facts and I would say, almost without fear of contradiction, that modern communications were twisted to make the facts impossible to see.
I actually said: "It should be possible" not 'it does allow'.
While I agree that there was a lot of propaganda, not to mention lies, floating about it was possible to find the facts if you really wanted to. Many people of course just want to read that which re-inforces their own prejudices. I was lucky to have an English mistress at school who brought items from newspapers in and asked us if they were true false or just opinions. Unusually for those days she even subjected religeous subjects to critical analysis.
It would be a good idea if this sort of analysis was taught in all schools. It would be even better if this sort of analysis was regularly done in the media with no subject being off limits. (I see no reason to respect religion).
The BBC tried to list the actual facts on many items during the EU campaign and did a reasonable job but was still unintentionally biased. Journalists have a common viewpoint and often cannot see that this can be subject to question.
I wish the news programmes would go back to the days when they attempted to stick to the facts, instead of the reports being written by the presenters.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 27/12/2016.
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Good post that tteedd.
And I agree the BBC do a good job all in all, but when the commentators have a certain view it does come through in their programmes.
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Best wishes, Brian
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briando55
I agree it was a good post by tteed
One of my schoolteachers did a similar thing with the newspapers and criminal cases - we discussed many issues with a very open (and often young niaive) view, it was good fun and edcuational.
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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London weighting is not given to all and varies from private to public sector employess it does not cover the entire SE only greater London
Outer London and many paces in the south still have higher rents than "up north" so housing benefit differs without any lonodn weighting to salaries
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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OK thanks Tadd, but aren't average (median) wage earnings higher in the SE?
Anyway, here's a useful comparison site that people can check against.
http://www.salarygraph.co.uk/
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Ok good link
Still my point is housing benefits I uk vary region to region but other benefits remain the same
Which could be the same rule across the EU for benefits so those who keep arguing about the Duffryn cist of living etc as the same applies across the uk
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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OK.
Housing benefit has nothing to do with London Weighting anymore. The percentage of housing benefit a person can receive is based on their ability to pay versus the rent they have to pay.
I have placed comments on here before about this, the 'north' is usually the subject of benefit scrounger programmes (most of these people I never come across in my local or close by areas really, I dont know how they find them).
The south however, take around 85% of housing benefit from the tax coffers. This is because the landlords can get away with charging extortionate rent, only social housing rent is really affordable and the government want those houses back, to sell. The waiting list for a council house in London is around 50 years now for most categories.
Then the private landlords who end up with them can charge extortionate rent on even more properties.
The southern areas are most welcome to this mess, I would be happy though if the rest of us didnt have to pay for it.
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Best wishes, Brian
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Briando
Where is the N S border? if housing is more expensive in the South and more people live in the South then your stats are wholly unexceptional.
My pension consists of a couple of rental properties.
I avoid benefit caimants like the plague, they are most likely to default and leave the property in poor state.
My return on capital is less than 3%. (perhaps OK when the bank rate is so low).
The whole business has now become more risky with the last cancellors/administration's changes. It is now a serious risk to have an empty property. I'm seriously thinking of selling. A friend of mine who had quite a large portfolio got out last year.
Not sure what any of this has to do with BREXIT though.
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Hi.
Im not sure where the country turns from north to south. It used to be north of Watford gap!
I also rent out property, for example I recently let a three bedroom semi house of 1930 style and type, with parking and front and rear gardens, very well maintained, decorated and 'desirable'. £505 per month.
This house has had benefit tenant in the past and currently has a working couple (NHS).
I work in the south occasionally and visit some flats (Tottenham recently). A poorly fitted out third floor flat with single glazed windows, old boiler, basic appointed, was £1200 per month, I was told this was cheap. It seemed the tenant was trying to make a living and had housing benefit of full rent.
I think the country and its current methods and state has something to do with Brexit although it's more complicated to identify. It feeds into the reasons more areas in the north were voting out? This was more to do with our own political structure than the EU maybe? Worth discussing anyway, I could be wrong y'know
This message was last edited by briando55 on 28/12/2016.
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Best wishes, Brian
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tteedd,
We sold our three rental properties a few years ago for all the negative reasons that you correctly make, we worked on the presumption that although interest rates were liable to fall we could dip into our capital (now over 50% ISA'd) as and when required. We were amused, but not surprised, when a couple of very well pensioned and early retired head teachers accused us of being a couple of Rackmans when we had the rental portfolio.
My best mate's son has just bought a shoe box flat in Cambridge for £250K, but he's on over £100K p/a (albeit having to borrow the deposit). This will keep track with many detached properties north of Watford Gap, not to mention a nice villa with pool in Spain, I can't understand why folk stay in the south east when they don't need to be there, and have a standard property that they can sell for a king's ransom.
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IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.
THANK YOU.
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Yes I agree with that Destry.
I don't see the attraction with London and south east myself either. I love visiting places like sandwich and Poole for example, but I don't look up to London as my capital anymore, the way I used to do.
I don't get it, maybe I lost the plot somewhere!!
Cambridge is lovely, bath is lovely, York is lovely, Whitby, Harrogate, Lincoln, parts of Cornwall, parts of 'round Birmingham'. Scotland areas!
But london? Can't see it.
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Best wishes, Brian
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Would you property mogul Brexiteers please create a thread of your own and not hijack the topic. I'm not sure what your purpose in posting this personal information intends.
I mean do you want to read about my interesting life story? No thought not.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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