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27 Oct 2016 3:09 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

Differences yet again in perspective and comprehension Rob_j1. ;) Apologies if I failed to be more specific.

Re protectionist stance I refer to Commonwealth countries

the EU is holding the nation back from fostering stronger trading links with Commonwealth countries, many of which are growing at a faster rate than EU economies.

As for the bad old days, that's exactly my concern that the EU by turning a blind eye to the proliferation of intolerance through their inflexibility on lack of controls where required, is actually exacerbating the problem.

I do take note of the failures by the Cameron Govt to adequately react to these realities however, but to suggest that the source of these problems were solely of the UK's making is to me a form of denial.

As for no need for reform, goodness that's a bold generalisation that fails to take account of all manner of realities already discussed at length on this forum. 

You ask about an alternative this has already been identified in terms of greater flexibility and willingness to listen and better respond to citizens concerns, better coordination and forward planning, greater accountability and transparency, adherence to predefined stability mechanisms, etc etc.... the list goes on.

Enough repetition, surely?

On an optimistic note, let's take pleasure from a hopefully redefined CETA agreement which if they have resolved the issues that were compromising the deal, then the Wallonians will have done a massive favour for us all. That's why I referred to it as being courageous.... not to succumb to powerful elites ( and that includes the EU bureaucrats who IMHO were not taking on board valid citizen concerns).

Nice to finish on a positive. ;)

 

 

 





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27 Oct 2016 3:35 PM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

Just to add to the debate about control of borders

https://fullfact.org/europe/border-security-eu/

the only open uncontrolled border the UK has is between NI and Republic of Ireland



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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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27 Oct 2016 4:13 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

Tadd we're not talking about identity checks here, we're making reference to the ability to freely enter and stay for the purposes to live and work, and in that process under EU rules we are inhibited to control the intake prior to  making adequate preparation and respond to these relatively swift and constantly increasing numbers of migrants who are drawn to our shores from the EU due to unacceptable high levels of unemployment etc.

Without the ability to preplan and or decipher the needs of any member state in terms of lacking of skills or undersupply of workers, or impact on infrastructure, etc  without being able to control intake, leaves the recipient member state at risk as already described, and also in that process fails to address the other members states need to adequately respond to unacceptable levels of unemployment, and take measures to, for instance diversify their economy, expand and reskill etc.

To leave recipient nations as the scapegoat and "magnet" to excessive numbers of unemployed citizens on a large scale, without controls and forward planning, does no favours to either the recipient country nor the country being stripped of its labour force.

 


 


This message was last edited by ads on 27/10/2016.



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27 Oct 2016 4:42 PM by rob_j1 Star rating. 99 posts Send private message

Ads

Differences yet again in perspective and comprehension Rob_j1. ;) Apologies if I failed to be more specific.

Re protectionist stance I refer to Commonwealth countries

the EU is holding the nation back from fostering stronger trading links with Commonwealth countries, many of which are growing at a faster rate than EU economies.

As for the bad old days, that's exactly my concern that the EU by turning a blind eye to the proliferation of intolerance through their inflexibility on lack of controls where required, is actually exacerbating the problem.

I do take note of the failures by the Cameron Govt to adequately react to these realities however, but to suggest that the source of these problems were solely of the UK's making is to me a form of denial.

As for no need for reform, goodness that's a bold generalisation that fails to take account of all manner of realities already discussed at length on this forum. 

You ask about an alternative this has already been identified in terms of greater flexibility and willingness to listen and better respond to citizens concerns, better coordination and forward planning, greater accountability and transparency, adherence to predefined stability mechanisms, etc etc.... the list goes on.

Enough repetition, surely?

On an optimistic note, let's take pleasure from a hopefully redefined CETA agreement which if they have resolved the issues that were compromising the deal, then the Wallonians will have done a massive favour for us all. That's why I referred to it as being courageous.... not to succumb to powerful elites ( and that includes the EU bureaucrats who IMHO were not taking on board valid citizen concerns).

Nice to finish on a positive. ;)

There are about 200 countries in the world today, and we have the 5th largest economy. And considering that those ahead of us have vastly larger populations, I often wonder if those who are complaining are serious. Things are (were?) just fine, and asking for more seems a little like greed.

My statement that I am happy with the way things are, has been firmly backed up by economics. With a 4.9% unemployment rate, the UK is, again, doing just fine.

Those are the "realities". People here seem to fall into a trap of whinging about specifics (my local school this, my hospital that), yet cant see the forest for the trees. Workforce participation is at its highest level EVER. This is a reality, and if you draw the logical conclusion, you would have to say, people complaining about work (I couldnt get a job because of an immigrant) have no justification to say this. Far harder to look at yourself in the mirror and admit a personal failing, and far easier to blame someone else.

I dont agree with your views on the "problems", because to me this is just the natural course of events when economies grow, and a function of the digital revolution we are in. Its a bit like the dinosaur complaining about evolution.

All economies need growth, and they need inflation in the stable range of about 2-3%. The reasons are, again, backed up by economics, but broadly speaking, we cant have deflation. If people thought deflation was happening, they then put off and put off spending, thinking "it'll be cheaper tomorrow". Eventually, business collapses.

Thats the laymans explanation for saying why we need growth.

The more I listen to the rhetoric on here, the more it strikes me that people here are confused about our borders (are they open or closed), immigration (can we stop people or not), jobs (do we have a problem with unemployment or not), and infrastructure (theres an enormous cause / effect discussion right here).

Ads, we will indeed have to agree to disagree.





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27 Oct 2016 4:45 PM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

ads

I get that

the fact that EU citizens can come to the UK, live and work is a great idea for many reasons.

However, the main issue is the fact that as soon as they "land" in the UK they are entilteld to benefits which is a UK problem and NOT the EU's problemor even a problem due to being a member of the EU

Even after Brexit these benefit rules will STILL apply to anyone who is allowed to reside in the UK, EU citizen or not, and the non EU citizens are the bigger drain on the state.

So what will we  acheive - a big fat NOTHING because we have plenty of work (low paid or not) that need immigrants and they will be entitled to health care, tax credits, child benefit, housing allowances etc etc.

If we don't employ them who WILL do the work?

The control of borders will REMAIN the same after Brexit simple really



_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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27 Oct 2016 4:57 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

Al wrote:

Are you sure your reply was aimed at me, I don't recall being responsible for any of the content you are talking about?

By the way I do agree with the sentiment.

My apologies Al I'm mortified it was another poster who made those remarks. So sorry for my error.crying



_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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27 Oct 2016 8:54 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

The Anglo Saxons having died out long ago.

I have news for you, I'm very much alive! (and so are about 40+ million of the rest of us).

 

Never do they consider that their nation will be much poorer without skilled and unskilled workers from Europe.

Nor should they, the statement is false.

 

Normally we choose a party based on what we feel is right for us

You should chose the person best fitted to represent you. If people stopped voting for the man/woman with the right rosette and considered 'Is this person fit to represent me?' then we might get representatives fit for purpose.

 

parliament which is sovereign must have the final say

Parliament are the peoples representatives - the people are sovereign and have spoken.

 

The accepted legal opinion of a group of lawyers

I'm sure you can get lawyers to say anything, especially if they are on a large retainer.

 

Of course I suppose you will say Wikipedia is wrong as well. 

Wiki publishes any old nonsense, this is then corrected by people who know better or in the light of experience. So yes Wiki is often wrong in the first instance.

 

Now wants a free market.

Yes, of course, 'free market' does not mean 'single market'! I suspect that Mrs May has always been a free marketeer (limited by her Christian background).

 


This message was last edited by tteedd on 27/10/2016.


This message was last edited by tteedd on 27/10/2016.



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28 Oct 2016 1:06 AM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

Tadd if it's of reassurance to you and in the interest of transparency, here's some summary details re benefits identified as of May 2016

"the eligibility rules governing EU citizens’ access to welfare benefits are strongly linked to an EU citizen either being engaged in work or retaining a link to previous employment. Those EU citizens who manage to remain in work (or retain their worker status), for a continuous period of at least five years will acquire a permanent right to reside in the UK. However, many EU citizens struggle to meet the residence test because they are only able to obtain transient or casual work associated with certain industries, for example, agriculture, catering, hospitality etc. which pay minimal earnings under zero hours contracts. Further many EU citizens are unable to produce the necessary documentation needed to establish an entitlement to benefit. Against this background, talk of the UK being vulnerable to benefit tourism appears far-fetched."

Now we just need to  ensure in the interim period prior to Brexit, that housing, schools, health services, etc play catch up to accommodate migrants in work and still coming to work, that we swiftly  build sufficient homes to deal with the excess demand that has impacted rising rents, that our Govt establish a workable ( but complex) system to recoup the rightful monies from the EU states re health provision, that we reinstate and distribute monies to areas most affected by the influx, that we make adequate provision for a possible resurgence of migrants prior to Brexit ( anyone's guess as how many this will be), that we placate those nationals on zero hours contracts and lower salary scales as a consequence of migrants willing to accept these lowering standards (not including those on minimum wage which has recently increased), that we make extra provision for jails given the major increases in EU inmates, that we improve the human rights act so as to be able to repatriate inmates back to their member states where applicable, that we develop nationals to take up the shortfall of skills..,.just a few of the compromising realities the Govt has to deal with when the intake of migrants remains swift, uncontrolled and unplanned for.

But don't worry this is just a consequence of "the natural cause of events associated with growth" according to rob_j1.

So, do we just sit by and watch as this negatively impacts our society or do we try and respond and provide flexibility and look for better ways to control and manage events before the frustrations spill over into citizen unrest that impacts the proliferation of intolerance leading to a downward spiral of events?

Perhaps these are the aspects we should be debating and reflecting upon.





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28 Oct 2016 7:14 AM by BigAl2015 Star rating. 194 posts Send private message

Tadd, you say:

So what will we  acheive - a big fat NOTHING because we have plenty of work (low paid or not) that need immigrants and they will be entitled to health care, tax credits, child benefit, housing allowances etc etc.

If you could let us know how many is 'plenty' we can then let that amount of immigrants in to fill them?, problem solved, end of forum. Controlled migration is good, bring it on.





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28 Oct 2016 7:19 AM by BigAl2015 Star rating. 194 posts Send private message

Micky

My apologies Al I'm mortified it was another poster who made those remarks. So sorry for my error.crying

No problem, I noticed that someone actually liked your original post, which goes to show that people are liking content by who put's it there and not by it's validity.... strange world eh......laugh





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28 Oct 2016 8:48 AM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

Bigal

Sorry I so not have numbers but maybe if we filled the jobs with the lazy brits then the vacancies would dry up and and deter migrants

Also as ads says they don't get benefits so what is the problem

Sadly the lazy brits won't do the jobs and the benefits are being paid to migrantd and will continue to do so after brexit

The govt still won't invest in facilities for housing education hospitals etc so we we will gain nothing 

The whole thing of migration and anti migrants is so wrong under many circumstances and the attitude of many brits towards then is simply disgusting racist and stinks of old fashioned british elitism imperialism big headedness  and arrogance 



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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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28 Oct 2016 9:19 AM by BigAl2015 Star rating. 194 posts Send private message

Tadd

So what your'e proposing is 'Uncontrolled Immigration'?





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28 Oct 2016 9:26 AM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

Not at all

All immigartion is controlled at point of entry as are tourists and if immigrants have jobs then why not

I see no problem with the EU freedom of movement the problem is the UK system of free handouts to all

Brexit will NOT fix the problem of immigartion EU or non EU - please tell me how it will fix it

 

 

 



_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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28 Oct 2016 9:42 AM by BigAl2015 Star rating. 194 posts Send private message

Tadd

Now you say you are not proposing 'uncontrolled immigration', then that only leaves 'contorlled migration'

As far as I know the EU freedom of movement is uncontrolled, ie. we cannot say we have all the jobs covered and so at this moment in time do not need anymore migrants, thank you very much, but when jobs become available we will give you a call.... now that to me is 'controlled migration'.





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28 Oct 2016 9:51 AM by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1982 posts Send private message

In which case big al the controlled model is the more desireable one in my reckoning.  

Your discussing migration in one direction here.   There are commonalities amongst migrants within the EU from eastern member states.  The migrants are paid less in their own country for being a skilled or professional person there than being an unskilled worker here..

The country they leave is on a downward spiral because doctors, graduates etc are leaving, our country is also on a downward spiral because we expect our own people to be well educated and not performing some menial tasks, as a result the reports suggest we become over populated?

is society and the common good benefiting through uncontrolled migration?    It seems not to be.  



_______________________

Best wishes, Brian

 




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28 Oct 2016 11:09 AM by BigAl2015 Star rating. 194 posts Send private message

Briando

I am all for 'controlled migration', there should be jobs for all migrants or they should be in a position to fully support themselves financially to be able to live in the UK, this way they are no burden on our 'inadequate system'.

This seems the most sensible option and should be able to keep most people happy.





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28 Oct 2016 11:12 AM by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1982 posts Send private message

OK

Whats the reason behind allowing them to come when they are able to fully support themselves financially Al.

Is that some kind of master race plan for capitalists?



_______________________

Best wishes, Brian

 




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28 Oct 2016 11:40 AM by BigAl2015 Star rating. 194 posts Send private message

Briando

We have to take account of people from other countries that may want to retire to the UK, just as some of us may want to retire to say Spain.

If this movement of people does not negatively impact the recipient country financially then I cannot see a problem.

My problem with 'uncontrolled migration' is the financial burden we are storing up for the future.





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28 Oct 2016 11:48 AM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

What a state we are in I wonder how many will react to Scottish migrants when Scotland leave the UK and stay in EU

Why can't we all live together and my wish is an EU with the same freedom as the 4 state union of the UK instead if this elitenesss and arrogant attitude

Yes we have a long way to go but as I have said before we want peace and harmony across the globe one day it might happen when the human race grows up a bit



_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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28 Oct 2016 12:00 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

So long as there is an inequality of earning power across member states there will always be a "magnetic" draw to the state that provides the higher earning capacity, especially in times of high unemployment, and so long as this is kept in check ( through controls to identify both the country's need and ability to adequately accommodate ) there should be no problem. The trouble is that there appears no such flexibility at present to allow these controls within the current EU system of free  movement.

So there are two aspects to tackle here, one to ensure that the recipient's state Govt are able to forward plan for intake ( which requires effective monitoring and projections by the EU.....does this exist, is this possible?) and secondly to allow flexibility for transitional controls in the interim to act as counter balance ( currently not allowed).

The issue of unemployment should also be addressed otherwise the continual movement of people will exacerbate both recipient states and the states depleted of their labour force. This too needs to be addressed by the EU in terms of effective strategies to encourage diversification of skills/ new industries etc. But again this takes time and interim controls would have to be considered to minimise the situation the UK is currently experiencing, where the sudden and unplanned for influx of labour is causing a downward effect on all aspects discussed to date. The question then becomes is the EU willing to recognise and tackle this compromising problem?

To look at this in isolation or in ideological terms will not work if the EU are to continue with the free movement of people. They have to recognise their role and resonsibilities in this equation, and to just blame the recipient state is completely irresponsible. By this I'm not suggesting that the recipient states should not do more,....they should and it is equally wrong to ignore these factors also

With this in mind here's the latest action in the UK with regard to EU criminals (as well as the benefit changes previously identified)....

European criminals who commit even minor offences will be deported and banned from the UK for up to 10 years for the first time,Sky News reports. Making the announcement at the Conservative Party Conference, the Home Secretary said the Government does not need to wait until Brexit to introduce the measures.

"We are going to overhaul our legislation to toughen our approach to deporting EU criminals and those who abuse our laws.

Not before time some would suggest ( another sad criticism of the Cameron years, I'm afraid).

Time for grown up thinking and realistic planning I would suggest..... Both by the UK Govt AND and the EU.

 

 

 

 

 


This message was last edited by ads on 28/10/2016.



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