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16 Apr 2016 3:11 PM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

mickyfinn

I share your dream and have said many times a united federal europe not unlike the 4 state union of the UK

My priorities are for ALL EU citizens

1. Common state funded healthcare

2.Common state funded Education including university

3. Common state pensions

4. Common taxation (individual state taxes possibly)

5. Common state funded welfare / benefit system for those who need it

6. A EU wide social housing project so every EU citzne has acces to affordable safe and secure housing

7. An elected EU parliament and president

8. Common EU law based on an EU constitution

9. Regulation and standardisation of ALL professions and trades

10. Ban all tax havens in EU

11. Job creation

A dream but why not and it is not impossible but first we have to get rid of greed and selfishness

 



_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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16 Apr 2016 3:21 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

An important read for all those concerned by property rights across member states and the EU's role in protecting citizens rights ( or not as the case may be) was written by Diana Wallis, Vice President of the EU Parliament back in 2011.

dianawallis.org.uk/en/document/european-property-rights-and-wrongs.pdf

Its title " European Property Rights and Wrongs" speaks reams about the failures back then and now in retrospect some five years on you can draw your own conclusions about the EU's impotence to protect citizens against the wrongs. Where may I ask is any reference or prioritorising commitment to ensuring adherence to the rule of law?

In reality Mickeyfinn if they can't get their act together some five years on ( not to mention those still fighting for inalienable rights against the Banks some 12 years on and beyond!), and still the call for protection of citizens rights rings loud and clear, ( and this is just one aspect) then I don't hold out much optimism for adequate reform across 28 member states I'm afraid.





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16 Apr 2016 4:28 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

ads.

It's not EU failure it is in part the machismo of some of the governments of member sovereign states who block further EU control over their domestic laws. They do that under pressure from vested interest groups in their own country from where their political support originates.  

How often have we heard in the UK 'more interference from Brussels’? ‘Britain does not want to be told what to do by foreigners’. The reality is very different. It’s simply convenient to blame an autonomous entity and leave it at that because it’s difficult to challenge. In the middle ages everyone used to blame the village idiot for all the ills that befell them. It is the same principle.

The EU can only carry out the reforms you want with member state agreement. A consensus is essential. Otherwise the EU would be accused of dictatorship. It's not an organization that believes in authoritarianism. It's democratic as much as it can be under the flawed construction which created it.

I agree that requires change and I believe the EU is now heading in that direction. Britain leaving will set that process back a long way and destabilise its direction. Nothing positive can come from it, not even for the British themselves.



_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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16 Apr 2016 4:32 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

A dream but why not and it is not impossible but first we have to get rid of greed and selfishness

Well said Tadd. Dreams or aspirations for improvement and change are why the human race has advanced to our current state after walking out of Africa. Brexit is simply turning back to the past and we can learn from history can't we?



_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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16 Apr 2016 6:08 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

Let's consider a few realities as opposed to dreams here........

The EU Framework to strengthen the rule of law

The objective of the Framework is to prevent, through a dialogue with the Member State concerned, that an emerging systemic threat to the rule of law escalates further into a situation where the Commission would need to make use of its power of issuing a proposal to trigger the mechanisms of Article 7 TEU.

If such a threat cannot be effectively addressed by the safeguards at national level, or by the existing instruments at EU level, in particular infringement procedures, the Framework could be applied.

The Framework establishes a three-stage process: a Commission assessment, a Commission recommendation and monitoring of the Member State’s follow-up to the Commission’s recommendation. At all stages, dialogue should continue between the Commission and the Member State concerned.

If however no solution is found within the Framework, Article 7 TEU will always remain the last resort to resolve a crisis and ensure the Member State complies with EU values. Article 7 TEU provides for special mechanisms with far-reaching sanctions in case a Member State does not respect the fundamental values referred to in Article 2 TEU, including the rule of law.

___________________________________________________________________________________

Given the above and knowledge of failure to resolve the indisputable lack of timely justice and enforcement and legal certainty issues which have compromised the rule of law in Spain during this last decade and beyond, why has this commitment to the rule of law and option to use the last resort mechanism not been evoked by the EU?

It appears as EU rhetoric and does little to inspire confidence in a system which purports to protect citizens rights, especially when some of the wrongs have already been identified by the EU Parliament’s Vice President back in 2011, no less.

It also adds insult to injury when you read that back in 2013 the EU declared this to be "The European Year of Citizens"!!

 Then more recently in Feb 2015  Vice President Franz Timmermans highlighted, “So I cannot repeat it often enough: Compromising on values is compromising on the EU, weakening it and bringing it to a standstill. There can be no Europe without full respect of our common values.

This Commission is dedicated to advancing fundamental rights and the rule of law. I have been entrusted by President Juncker with a duty of special significance – and of huge significance to me –, that of steering and coordinating this work.

………My conviction and policy has always been – if current tools don’t deliver, we will have to improve them………..

But then he continued to clarify the status quo,

“And much already exists in terms of reporting mechanisms and information sources on compliance with fundamental values and the rule of law in Member States. Numerous actors – including Union institutions and agencies, in particular the Fundamental Rights Agency which carries out excellent work, but also the Council of Europe and its Venice Commission, as well as many NGOs – all perform regular monitoring activities and make important assessments. Efforts to make this information more accessible and easier to use must certainly be encouraged.

Well all I can say in this regard is that there are major omissions in the current monitoring systems for failures to adhere to the rule of law in terms of timely justice and legal certainty issues that have arisen in Spain to have been missed, and to rely upon the member state for accurate provision of these details is naive in the extreme.

The Bank Guarantee issues (www.bankguaranteesinspain.com) and failure to gain timely justice and the issue of legal certainty have been reported to the EU Parliamentarians time and again during this last decade, so they cannot claim ignorance of the facts.

 

 


This message was last edited by ads on 16/04/2016.



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16 Apr 2016 6:12 PM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

It's not EU failure it is in part the machismo of some of the governments of member sovereign states who block further EU control over their domestic laws. They do that under pressure from vested interest groups in their own country from where their political support originates.

All about a small minority with their own self interest and greed at heart nothing to do with your average families needs or what is best for the majority of citizens. I know what I want and I suspect millions of others which is

equality for every human being, a good standard of living and a safe prosperous future for my family and future generations a future without greed, selfishness, and all the ills of this world

If the UK leaves the EU what next UK breaks up, England breaks up and devolution takes us backwards, more greed and eventually public unrest with disastrous consequences for joe public



_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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16 Apr 2016 6:33 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

A good message that needs to be directed to the Banks and Global Corporations who at every opportunity endeavour to use their might and lobbying powers for their own self interests with all too little regard for moral or ethical standards.

Turning a blind eye to the Rule of Law is of major importance to all EU citizens for whom it has taken years to establish as a civilised and ethical basis upon which a decent way of life and values have evolved.

 


This message was last edited by ads on 16/04/2016.


This message was last edited by ads on 16/04/2016.


This message was last edited by ads on 16/04/2016.



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17 Apr 2016 1:35 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

Hi

The below is a quote from Sir Ian Botham in todays times. I quote it because on this thread there is frequently erronous statements from an inners about what Brexiters stand for. This is one genuine statement about what one Brexiter stands for:

.......................................................................................................................................

Anyone who is proud of their country and cares about its future should take their share of personal responsibility for what happens to it. We now all have the chance to do our bit and vote to get Britain out of the racket that the European Union has become.

They bill us for £350m a week, a sum which I find staggering­ — that is £50m every single day. In return, the traditional independence which we value so highly is being continuously eroded by EU legislation. We have lost the right to govern ourselves, to make our own laws and to choose who comes here. The bureaucrats and judges in Brussels have taken on more and more of these powers and if we stay in the EU there is absolutely nothing we can do about it.

It’s time to stand proud and reclaim our power from Brussels

Brussels does not even make good use of the money we do send them. The EU’s accounts have not been given a clean bill of health in 20 years because so much gets swallowed up by waste and corruption. We get grants back from Europe to support farming and regional development but they tell us how to spend that money. We could do a much better job of running these programmes ourselves once we are free of horrors like the common agricultural policy.

Reclaiming our independence is the opposite of being isolated, it is about Britain striking out as a global trading nation — returning to the vision that made us a great country, rather than being tied down to one corner of the world by our EU membership.

In my cricketing career, I played alongside teammates and against opposition from all over the world — from India, Australia, the Caribbean.

Countries like these are our natural friends. It is insane that because we are in the EU we do not have the freedom to reach our own agreements to trade freely with these places or with emerging powers such as China.

It is also wrong that we have to discriminate against people from outside Europe who want to come and live here because we are legally bound to accept uncontrolled immigration from the EU.

Cricket is a game where you achieve the greatest success when you are confident in your own ability to go out and stand proud. Britain has that spirit.

It is time to reclaim our basic sovereignty, the power to decide for ourselves. This proud trading nation must take back control from the bureaucrats in Brussels and make our way in the world once again, with confidence. That is why I am going to vote “leave”.

Ian Botham

....................................................................................................................................................

In the times there is also a piece by Nial Fergusson that is pro EU but it starts and finishes by calling those it disagrees with 'Morons'.

It's main thrust is that the Pound may go down in value (perhaps not a welcome thought for many on this board) but does not say why, or why that would necessarily be bad for the UK. I somehow find the hearfelt and well thought out comment by Ian Botham more compelling and truthful (to say nothing of polite) than that of the american academic.

I commend Ian Botham's item to you as the thoughts of a Brexiter who does not stoop to calling the other side names or attribute attitudes to them but just says it as he sees it.

 


This message was last edited by tteedd on 17/04/2016.


This message was last edited by tteedd on 17/04/2016.



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17 Apr 2016 2:28 PM by mariedav Star rating in Ciudad Quesada. 1220 posts Send private message

I'd probably have read through that if he hadn't started by getting his sums so wrong. If he can't even bother to check his facts then the rest will simply be another rant by an uninformed "celeb". What next, the thoughts of Russel Brand?

 





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17 Apr 2016 3:00 PM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

so when did beefy represent Britain he played for England if I recall

maybe he wants a return to the days of the empire

is he not aware of the many agreements the UK has with none EU countries

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/uk-bilateral-trade-relations-business-opportunities

mind you as sad before it will be the English who ultimateley decide in or out not the Scottish, Welsh or N Irish which may end up causing the break up of the UK



_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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17 Apr 2016 4:12 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

Bothams statements should be read with the knowledge he works for Sky Sports and the article was published in The Sunday Times. All News International companies under the ownership and direction of Rupert Murdoch who hates all things EU.

It's simply celebrity recruitment from the outers.



_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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17 Apr 2016 4:50 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

mm

I don't see anything wrong with his sums but then we did do arithmetic when I went to school. I think there are still 7 days in a week.

As I have aleady pointed out that there were both pro and anti articles in the Times the R Murdock/Times comments can't hold water.

We joined as a unit. No reason why we should not leave as a unit. It is a rather strange stance to be pro EU and Anti UK.





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17 Apr 2016 5:27 PM by mariedav Star rating in Ciudad Quesada. 1220 posts Send private message

His sums? What did he do, pick a figure out of the air and quote that? No, he doubled the amount and added a bit, just to make it look good.

Already been posted many times that the EU costs nowhere near that. Unfortunately, it's the outers working on the premise that you if you repeat something enough times people will come to believe it and lo, it came about.

The Telegraph is a very, very pro exit newspaper. However, at least they have done their sums and don't come out with the ridiculous 55 million pounds a day at the end of it.

EU costs for UK

Yes, I do know there are 7 days in a week (thank you for being so condescending) but taking a wrong figure in the first place and then multiplying it by 7 is one of the oldest tricks in the book. It simply multiplies the error by 7.

 





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17 Apr 2016 6:09 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

I'm starting to see the outers have a hidden agenda. Reading an article by David Davis the Tory MP who was defeated in the leadership election by David Cameron. He was later sacked and has been sulking ever since.

Boris Johnson has clear aspirations to be PM. Now this may be seen as trivia until you consider that after a Brexit vote a coup of brexiteers could take over the Tory parliamentary party. Finally the divisions in the party that have smouldered for a generation will be laid bare.

Britain could find itself with a government it did not elect. A government committed to exit the EU at any cost. A government weak with support is a dangerous animal.

 


This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 17/04/2016.


This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 17/04/2016.

_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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17 Apr 2016 6:53 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

Why does eveyone want to twist things. He did not say it costs £50M (let alone £55M) per day he said we are billed £50M per day. This is perfectly true if rounded down a little. He does go on to say we get some back.

If it were not that J Corbyn is leader of the labour party I would say that your conspiracy theories were ridiculous Micky. Perhaps I will have to stick with very far fetched though.

Bet you a fiver Boris is never PM.

BTW where can we read the D Davis bit?

 


This message was last edited by tteedd on 17/04/2016.



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17 Apr 2016 7:14 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

I'm sure that Mr Botham was very careful and well advised before chosing the figures he quoted but just to make it clear without figures, that are always challenged for some reason or other. The UK is the second highest net contributer to the EU and gets the lowest percentage return in terms of grants.

 


This message was last edited by tteedd on 17/04/2016.



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17 Apr 2016 9:08 PM by Britin Star rating. 23 posts Send private message

What a load of nationalistic crap our sporting sir quotes - I can visualise him at the head of a rabble of ´innners´ shouting - ´St. George for England, even though we are marching toward perdition´, threatening to punch any ´inners´ on the nose, or worse, that get in his way (once a bully, always a bully).

I did read his article, even though I knew it would be a waste of my time - I have only myself to blame!!





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17 Apr 2016 9:43 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

What erudite and penetrating analysis!

 

 

 

"I commend Ian Botham's item to you as the thoughts of a Brexiter who does not stoop to calling the other side names or attribute attitudes to them but just says it as he sees it"

 


This message was last edited by tteedd on 17/04/2016.



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17 Apr 2016 11:00 PM by Britin Star rating. 23 posts Send private message

And that is the problem - so many others have ´said it as they´ve seen it´ and acted on that premise and caused horrific wars which, thank goodness, the wise have countered and supressed.

The wise do not need to punch noses as the first resort ....... !





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18 Apr 2016 12:30 AM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

An interesting program that covers several sides of the EU debate is the Andrew Marr show, the most recent was this morning but there are others available to view.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b077yqj9





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