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"Free movement is a corner stone of the EU. Weaken it and core values will be lost. That is not intransigence it’s called principal."
If it is a cornerstone why wasn't it there when the EEC was founded in 1957?
I believe it was introduced in 1993. This is just one of the reasons for Brexit.
Overwhelming freedom of movement does not contribute to any society and is the cause of many people wanting to leave the EU.
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Micky and Ads you both seem to have missed the point that we dont truly have free movement of people to and from the UK, and never have, the UK shows a token acceptance of free movement within the EU by accepting that a person passing through being a EU resident, but we have no legal obligation to do this, and by checking a passport the transient person no longer has "free movement". This is possible at UK borders as the UK government never signed the Shengen agreement which defines the right for an EU citizen to enjoy free and unhindered travel across a member countries border. There are still border and customs checks at channel ports to ensure that you are a EU citizen by checking your passport and travel documents. This IS NOT free passage across the border. to enjoy FREE movement across the border there must be NO paperwork or other document inspections at any border crossing, and this does not, nor ever has happened in the UK ports of entry.(the border crossing building that used to be regularly shown on TV on the French- Belgium border has long since been bulldozed).
This is why Calais had "the Jungle" as the immigrants entered the EU illegally by smuggling themselves onto EU shores, IE; they did not declare themselves at a port of entry to the EU. They then transited memberstates by just passing freely through border controls with NO checks on their status. Once they get to Calais they then have to attempt to smuggle themselves to the UK by avoiding border checks that are in force due to the fact we never signed the Shengen agreement.Hence there is no "free Movement" to the UK, and once the UK leaves the EU there never will be.
The only true "free movement" in the UK is travelling from England to Scotland or Wales where a resident of the UK can pass over a border with Zero checks freely. And if Nicola Sturgeon has anything to do with Brexit, there will be border controls and import tariffs to be paid for anything or anyone travelling to or from Scotland!
Mickey, you are so right free movement is a cornerstone of EU policies, but a cornerstone the UK opted out of, a principal the UK NEVER signed up to. And yes, the UK is truly a multicultural society of people from around the world, not just the EU, but unfortunately there are many "little Englanders" here who cannot accept this just look at the increased racial attacks on immigrants after the opt out vote of the referendum. There needs to be massive change in the UK, with or without the membership of the EU.
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No you still don't understand Mickeyfinn, it's UNCONTROLLED free movement without EU checks and mechanisms in place to respond to irregular movements of this scale and timeframe that leads to intolerance, not free movement per see.
Without the ability to respond to these irregular movements, such as has been agreed with Canada in their trade agreement with the EU, with allowance for a fair monitoring and flexible and efficient electronic visa system, you leave member states vulnerable if those movements become out of kilter, large scale and swift etc.
I agree that national Govts play their part in terms of ongoing reform, but without tackling the underlying cause, I.e. lack of ALLOWABLE effective control mechanisms where applicable, where Govts that are expected to radically change their own benefit systems which were intended to protect the most vulnerable within their own society ( tax credits and housing benefits), or change the mechanisms in place to incentivise work ( in- work benefits), then intolerance would only grow, not diminish.
It is wrong to expect a nation to radically change their benefit system within an unrealistic timeframe, without taking account of ongoing reforms, or knock on effects associated with radical and swift change.
Neither is it fair not to take into account the wage differentials, remittance flows and economic stress factors on the recipient member states, that act as additional "pull factors" that have the potential to further exacerbate the vulnerabilities.
It's not as black and white as you suggest I'm afraid with regard to freedom of movement, and you seem reticent to accept these realities that other EU Parliamentarians are starting to recognise.
Robert,
As things currently stand Freedom of movement is allied with EU trade agreements, hence the need for Canada to place provisos on this in terms of inbuilt flexible controls to tackle " irregular migration ". Hence the suggestion this be replicated when negotiating access to the single market post Brexit, as Canada currently benefits from.
This message was last edited by ads on 24/02/2017.
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I see no real difference in principle on the free movement within the EU to what we have in the UK which is also not controlled yes we are supposed to be one united nation and have many shared laws and practices but many have differing views and want to control their own borders and destinies
What do you think the UK will do regarding teh border bewteen ROI and Northern Irleand or if Scotland get independance?
Are we expecting Trump style walls to be built
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Ads the Shengen agreement allows UNCONTROLLED free movement within the EU among participating member countries. The UK opted out of this agreement, so the "free Movement" remains, as it always has had a border crossing, but in a CONTROLLED manner.
Where you are correct is that the EU has made no provision for any member country supporting an influx of other member states residents when they migrate. This does of course put a heavy burden on the systems and services in place for residents, specially when they are claiming benefits. The cure for this financial burden is quite simple, any migrant shold have a universal benefit paid, the same as any other resident, at a rate determined by the EU as a whole and paid universally in every member state within the EU, so any claim paid is exactly the same in any country the claimant is residing in. The problem then is that some countries costs of living will be low compared to the benefit paid and would most likely create a "postcode lottery" migrant, who would live where they could get more for the benefit paid. Would this mean then that benefit seekers would all be moving to the impoverished countries within the EU, such as Romania and Bulgaria?
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"What do you think the UK will do regarding teh border bewteen ROI and Northern Irleand or if Scotland get independance?
Are we expecting Trump style walls to be built" Tadd1966
Tadd, i think you are a little late in your observation, a guy called Hadrian had just such a wall built on the Scottish border a few years ago! I really wonder what an independent of the EU England would do with the Scottish border points just to make a point to the Scottish Nationalists.
You also mention the Republic of Ireland, but we already have an agreement with them, and that is if a resident of either country wishes to transit the border they are afforded free unhindered movement across the border of Northern Ireland , or through the transport services between both countries. This was agreed between the republic of Ireland and the UK before even the Shengen agreement was ratified by the EU, and is unique in that it is the only land border within the UK and an outside country that enjoys a free movement policy
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robertt8696
Yes what the EU needs is a common welfare benefit policy across the entire union where people who really need help get teh same levelof help for their local area.
Yes you could look at the needs and cost of living and create a basic welfare payment in each region based on the local cost of living with a target that no EU citizens should be no better off on benefits anywhere than working or have to move to anothetr state just to get better benefist
when in work if some states need to prop up industry and wages with in work benefits funded by the tax payer then that is up to that member state but if it falsifies the global market (coudl be deemed as subsidies) then maybe that should be contolled centrally also
Mind you we could do with a system like that in the UK
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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It's called The United Kingdom Tadd and for Scotland to go it alone is economically unrealistic. Many Scottish people recognise this now and would be reticent to compromise themselves in this regard.
In terms of the border with Southern Ireland, it appears to have been agreed in principle that no physical borders will be necessary ( alternative electronic mechanisms could be put in place), and in the event of any future irregular movements of EU citizens causing stress on the Irish Republic, then I'm sure they are equally capable of negotiating their own corner, given the gradual realisation now by EU Parliamentarians of the need for adequate mechanisms to be put in place as a means of responding to such irregular migrationary pressures.
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robertt8696
Our post crossed
So if we keep an open border with ROI how do we contorl EU citznes using that r oute from say France to ROI then into NI which is part of the uk
BTW most of Hadraisn wall is in England and quite a way south of the actual border and woudl need some repair
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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ads
It's called The United Kingdom Tadd and for Scotland to go it alone is economically unrealistic. Many Scottish people recognise this now and would be reticent to compromise themselves in this regard.
Its called the EU and for the UK to go it alone may als be ecomoically unrealaistc we shall see. Many peopel in Scotland would disagree with you - a vote will show that and it did in 2014 with a narrow margin for remian
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Tadd this is already happening on the ferry routes to Ireland from France by a limited number of illegal immigrants, and the Irish authorities are monitoring the ferry services in an attempt to weed out those people without openly breaking the rules of European Free movement. The amount of individuals this actually is , is very low , and not something at the current time that respective governments are too bothered about, though i think that would likely change when we leave the EU
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The cure for the EU is not a universal benefit system for all the reasons you identify Robert, it's to put in place an adequate factoring mechanism that takes into account the various differentials across member states, and applies controls accordingly ( an intellectual exercise and a half!),....A stabilising mechanism if you will.
Trouble is the EU has already ignored existing stabilising mechanisms so not a good track record in that regard I'm afraid!
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Ads
The cure for the EU is not a universal benefit system for all the reasons you identify Robert, it's to put in place an adequate factoring mechanism that takes into account the various differentials across member states, and applies controls accordingly ( an intellectual exercise and a half!),....A stabilising mechanism if you will
WHy not what is the difference to what you are saying. Membert stateshave different rules on who qualifies for benefits (soem pay nothing) make them the same across all states and centrally which woudl be a stabilising mechanism
Teh object of benefits is to help thsie who lose their jobs aor cannot work for helath reason it is not a p***ing contest to see who has the best thsi is looking after human beings when in need
robertt8696
YEss illegal immigatnst between france and ROI sames as betewen france and UK. If EU citiznes can travek form EU to ROI and then into NI without contolrs whats teh diffnernec they end up staying in nI and claimingbenfist or woking illagally what about giving rights or residiency to ROI citiznes in NI and UK?
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Ads
A coupe of thoughts for you
why would Scotland be any less off than other small EU member states such as ROI, Malta, Luxembourg etc if they left teh UK and remined in EU (or "re-joined")
What about NI leaving the UK and joining up with ROI so they can remain in the EU as they voted
All could happen
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Britain signed the Treaty of Maastricht and the Treaty of Lisbon which was later ratified by the British Parliaments. I accept Brexit was a vote to withdraw from these treaties. That is no reason for the EU to change anything. Britain will be gone and the EU will go from strength to strength holding fast to it's political principles. If it does not it's finished.
Free movement of persons
Freedom of movement and residence for persons in the EU is the cornerstone of Union citizenship, which was established by the Treaty of Maastricht in 1992. Its practical implementation in EU law, however, has not been straightforward. It first involved the gradual phasing-out of internal borders under the Schengen agreements, initially in just a handful of Member States. Today, the provisions governing the free movement of persons are laid down in Directive 2004/38/EC on the right of EU citizens and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States, although substantial implementation obstacles persist.
Legal basis
Article 3(2) of the Treaty on European Union (TEU); Article 21 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU); Titles IV and V TFEU.
Objectives
The concept of the free movement of persons has changed in meaning since its inception. The first provisions on the subject, in the 1957 Treaty establishing the European Economic Community (1.1.1, 3.1.3 and 3.1.4), covered the free movement of workers and freedom of establishment, and thus individuals as employees or service providers. The Treaty of Maastricht[1] introduced the notion of EU citizenship[2] to be enjoyed automatically by every national of a Member State. It is this EU citizenship that underpins the right of persons to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States. The Lisbon Treaty confirmed this right, which is also included in the general provisions on the Area of Freedom, Security and Justice.
Achievements
A.The Schengen area
The key milestone in establishing an internal market with free movement of persons was the conclusion of the two Schengen agreements, i.e. the Agreement proper of 14 June 1985, and the Convention implementing the Schengen Agreement, which was signed on 19 June 1990 and entered into force on 26 March 1995. Initially, the Schengen implementing Convention (signed only by Belgium, France, Germany, Luxembourg and the Netherlands) was based on intergovernmental cooperation in the field of justice and home affairs. A protocol to the Amsterdam Treaty provided for the transfer of the ‘Schengen acquis’ (5.12.4) into the Treaties. Today, under the Lisbon Treaty, it is subject to parliamentary and judicial scrutiny. As most Schengen rules are now part of the EU acquis, it has no longer been possible, since the EU enlargement of 1 May 2004, for accession countries to ‘opt out’ (Article 7 of the Schengen Protocol).
EU fact sheet on the European Union.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Mickey all of your post is very factual, but you seem to have missed the part where it states, " the Schengen Agreement, which was signed on 19 June 1990 and entered into force on 26 March 1995. Initially, the Schengen implementing Convention (signed only by Belgium, France, Germany, Luxembourg and the Netherlands)" Note the UK was not a signatory and also in the passage you quote, " As most Schengen rules are now part of the EU acquis, it has no longer been possible, since the EU enlargement of 1 May 2004, for accession countries to ‘opt out’ (Article 7 of the Schengen Protocol)."
Therefore as the UK opted out BEFORE 1 May 2004, the Schengen Agreement STILL does not apply to the UK, and as i have already stated the UK as a result does not have free, unopposed borders for anyone, UK, EU, or even worldwide. All our ports of entry, either sea or air (and Tunnel), all have customs enforcement at the port, and are manned by UK border controls, who will stop you and check your credentials. You can protest that this is not the case, but if you go in a vehicle, when at the booking office collecting your tickets they will ask to see your passport on exit, and on return you will pass through a customs control office after collecting your ticket, where your Passport WILL be checked. This means although you will have a pleasant transit, it is in NO WAY "free movement" as your prticulars WILL be checked, and also why there is such a large rag tag bunch in the area of Calais attempting to gain illegal entry to the UK, and if we were truly open to "free movement" they would long since have arrived on this side of the channel!
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Yes Roberto I accept the UK is not and has never been part of Schengen. Free Movement as such for the Uk relates to the right of residence and employment for EU nationals.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Yes Roberto I accept the UK is not and has never been part of Schengen. Free Movement as such for the Uk relates to the right of residence and employment for EU nationals.
So thats where I have been going wrong all the time, I actually thought the thousands of Indians, Pakistanis, Somalians, Africans, Russians, Iraq's, Afghanis, Libyans, Syrians, that have come to the UK, and the many more, were all EU nationals.
Well, I suppose they must be EU nationals as they probably stopped overnight in France.
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baz, Free movement has nothing to do with or relate to rights of residence in the UK and employment. All Free Movement relates to is the right for an EU resident to freely move across the EU and within the EU from one country to another AS IF THERE IS NO BORDER THERE. This means that a person with full EU identity and documentation is allowed free passage across that border with NO RESTRICTION. These elements form the basis of the Schengen agreement to which the UK DOES NOT subscribe to and has always opted out of. An interesting BBC webpage explains the Schengen agreement, and its implications here, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13194723
As this thread rumbles on, i feel most of the contributors are getting confused with "Free Movement" within the EU, and the separate right to reside in a member state that a person chooses to live in, a totally separate matter governed by yet another EU dictat. A EU resident has the right to enter another country within the EU as they are all member states, but this does not exempt that immigrant having to observe the rules and regulations of the country they have moved to. Every country has their own regulations regarding immigrancy for migrants from within the EU, just as there are regulations for migrants from the rest of the world, and these rules have NOTHING to do with the right to "Free Movement"
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Here is the citizens advice page for an EU nationals right to reside in the UK, and some of the things they must have fulfilled to be eligable,
www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/coming-from-abroad-and-claiming-benefits-the-habitual-residence-test/eea-nationals-and-the-habitual-residence-test/eea-nationals-other-ways-to-get-rights/you-are-an-eea-national-with-a-permanent-right-to-reside-in-the-uk/
The first key part is that you "must have a legal right to live in the UK, and is called the RIGHT TO RESIDE",
and secondly that,
"you intend to settle in the UK, Isle of Man, Channel Islands or Ireland (the 'Common Travel Area') and make it your home for the time being. This is known as habitual residence."
These qualifications are required and do not in any way form part of any free movement agreement,and are extended to EU nationals as part of the right of residence within the EU.
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