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There are challenges for the EU I concede that but Britain leaving does not a domino collapse make.
Not often you manage it but I think you are probably right there. The UK was always the jigsaw piece stuffed into the wrong hole in the EU picture. Who knows with the wonky bit missing the EU may prove a little more stable?
Joining the EU damaged the UK in many areas as well as damaging our trading partners in the Commonwealth. EU regulation and EU actions have frequently not been in our best interests (to say the least). But equally our bit of grit in the cogs of the EU has not helped things to run efficiently.
The EU is being stretched at the seams by the N-S economic disparity. This is the most likely source of failure of the EU with the UK in or out. If it were to happen we would be better off not part of it. If it does not happen the EU will just be one of our many trading partners around the world. If the EU is not doing well then, never mind, perhaps Asia, America or Africa is. Likewise if Asia is not doing well then perhaps the EU and other parts of the world will be. Let diversification in our trade replace having many of our eggs in one basket.
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Yes I agree with that ads. If the EU collapses the UK will feel the pain along with everyone else. In an ideal world it's in both interests to proceed to a successful outcome of Brexit. Which means mutually acceptable solutions. Anything less will likely be damaging to both sides.
The trouble is the world as we all know it is flawed by political ambitions and power lusts. I believe Brexit will not end well.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Gosh if only we had kept to the orignal premise, that of a "common market" - a trading relationship that benefitted all countries.
But alas, the Germans and their French poodles saw it as yet another opportunity to rule the whole of Europe.
Thankfully, that is now at an end....well, for now at least.
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.....from David
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Ads
I see no real evidence of the uk evaluating or looking to fix the differentials in the uk and I can see no way they could fix it in reality other than creating a bigger divide than already exists and end up goring even more devolution
I keep saying this the eu is not the problem neither are the citizens the problems the uk have are all of its own making and leaving the eu will make things worse not better
Only time will tell but I suspect some unknown factor will force a rethink
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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The "Northern Powerhouse" is one to watch in the future Tadd as business interests shift to the North of England.... already attracting interest but obviously early days.
“It is clear that the UK government is looking to build a fairer economic model based on allowing more people to trade, not just the City of London and all the major corporations, but empowering the local communities and the regions too. The Northern Powerhouse will work well as a model for this.”
The UK Northern Powerhouse International Conference and Exhibition is supported by business leaders from across the major cities of the North. It will include interactive sessions with top firms such as Nissan, Cisco and Stobart Group, as well as the Confederation of British Industry, Institute of Directors and Federation of Small Businesses.
Topics being addressed during the conference include manufacturing, transport and infrastructure, finance and delivery, devolution, competitiveness and productivity and energy.
But alongside this growth strategy it's essential that the needs of those citizens who have been neglected during the Cameron years are equally addressed, hence such incentives as in-work benefits and tax credits to help give them a step up on the ladder. Plus housing development is now finally pushing ahead, but again the focus should include affordable housing and rents to cater for a more varied social mix. Anything is possible if you put your mind to it. What is needed is a more caring, inclusive and "joined up" approach to forward planning and not just growth strategies alone.
The EU for all its benefits sadly stifles such approaches as its far too unwieldy, inflexible and appears out of touch with its citizens. It needs to change.
This message was last edited by ads on 13/02/2017.
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leaving the eu will make things worse not better
Justify?
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The UK prison's are overcrowded and there are over 5,000 EU nationals in prison's in the UK costing the British tax payer over £150 million per year apparently this has risen by 240% since the Eastern European's have joined the EU allowing them to move in mass to the UK apparently the UK has no right to carryout criminal background checks and refuse entry to the UK as it is against EU human rights act. This message was last edited by windtalker on 14/02/2017.
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** EDITED - Against forum rules **
This message was last edited by eos_moderators on 2/14/2017 12:04:00 PM.
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NO SNIDE COMMENTS PLEASE. STICK TO THE THREAD SUBJECT.
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Elsietanner stop Trolling my post refers to facts about EU nationals locked up in British prison and how the UK is not allowed to carry out criminal background check's by the EU it has nothing to do with Emigration a extremely high number of EU citizens that are free to enter the UK have just been released from prison in their own country or have committed serious crime's . This message was last edited by windtalker on 14/02/2017.
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Tteedd
Stop behaving like a forum troll we have enough of them
Nobody can justify anything whether leaving the EU will make things better or worse it is my view based on what i think feel see read and hear etc
Ads
You talk about power houses all words no facts and no action also this has been truedcnany times in the past look at what hapoened in Newport south Wales a few years ago and that was with at support
From what i hear in my business circle more and more businesses are looking at alternatives to the UK and planning for the worst just like the bank's
Many eu member States are getting ready to make attractive offers to businesses
But as I said time will tell and justify if I am right or wrong
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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If certain folk on this forum don't like anyone talking about the problems that immigration has caused to the UK, which it has on a more then massive scale, then certain folk can always come up with some sensible debates on other major issues which I am sure there are plenty more of them, but right now immigration is number one on the list.
Immigration is not a problem for the UK by the people who don't live in the UK.
And for the record one more time, genuine people from the EU are not the problem, just another small point some folk can't seem to grasp.
Further to add to windtalkers post, yes our prisons are pretty much full to the brim with 'Others' a prison not to far away from me has got so many different nationalities and religions which don't in any way get on together they have named the floors by the respective countries.
And of course yet once again no one is actually forced to read any posts.
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baz- Immigration is not a problem for the UK by the people who don't live in the UK.
Can you see the irony in that statement? British people who live abroad are also immigrants in their European state that mostly welcomes and accepts them. So understand the subject from both view points.
When people complain about immigrants (and the European Union rules permitting free movement of labour into Britain) it is, in my view a manifestation of a cultural anxiety about the fast-paced modern world. In other words traditional resistance to social change.
In reality social and cultural change in societies all around the world has been taking place ever since man stood on two legs and walked out of Africa. Subsequent generations always believe their own cultural identity is at risk by such change. In fact if people learned to embrace it they would feel the benefits cultural changes always bring to any society.
It is now clear after the Brexit vote that there exists a huge divide in British society. Not along political lines any longer but one brought by economic disparity.
The well off and comfortable generally speaking voted to remain. The less well-off and struggling voted to leave. I believe they did that not because they believed they would be better off outside the EU but because of the traditional resistance among many of a certain social class to any form of change.
In short EU migration represents social change and is seen as a negative instead as I believe a positive for any society to have diversity at it’s core.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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As we've been asked nicely by the Mods not to do the immigration issue to death, why don't we bring back the discussion to the fact that many UK voters wanted Brexit because they did not like the huge contributions the UK is making to the EU or feared wastage and ill advised spending by the EU.
Are we getting value for money?
Will we be able to better control any contributions or Spending?
Coukd we direct spending decisions better ourselves rather that EU officials in Brussels?
What will the EU do once any UK contributions are removed or reduced?
This message was last edited by hugh_man on 14/02/2017.
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baz- Immigration is not a problem for the UK by the people who don't live in the UK.
Can you see the irony in that statement? British people who live abroad are also immigrants in their European state that mostly welcomes and accepts them. So understand the subject from both view points.
Sorry Mickyfinn it's you who cant see, we who are left in the UK are not complaining about immigration from the genuine EU immigrants, it's the rubbish people who are getting in that we are annoyed about, but you wouldn't know that because for reasons only know to yourselves you can't see it.
You make the point about the one's who leave the UK to live in another country, so now please tell me how many of you that left are top notch criminals, rapists, gang masters, murders, and so on, the many I speak with in Spain, for example, have left to have a better life, respect the country they moved to, adhere to the rules of that country, god forbid even pay tax to the chosen country.
It is now getting very boring because it's all one sided.
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Apparently....…( Scotland) if Sturgeon and Salmon's get their way will have to pay €4.6 billion per year to be a member of the EU and adopt the euro as Scotland's currency /allow complete freedom of movement/ allow any EU citizens the right to what ever the Scot's are in titled to ….….this seems to be something that the SNP are keeping from the Scottish population they are also refusing to discuss the massive national dept that Scotland will have to pay back to the UK before it is allowed to join the EU ,l don't know how the Scott's are going to manage all this because the last time l seen a Scottish MEP speak in Brussels he was beggin cap in hand to the EU. This message was last edited by windtalker on 14/02/2017.
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windtalker
Apparently....…( Scotland) if Sturgeon and Salmon's get their way will have to pay €4.6 billion per year to be a member of the EU and adopt the euro as Scotland's currency /allow complete freedom of movement/ allow any EU citizens the right to what ever the Scot's are in titled to ….….this seems to be something that the SNP are keeping from the Scottish population they are also refusing to discuss the massive national dept that Scotland will have to pay back to the UK before it is allowed to join the EU ,l don't know how the Scott's are going to manage all this because the last time l seen a Scottish MEP speak in Brussels he was beggin cap in hand to the EU.
You say €4.6Bn per yer (I have no reason to doubt this figure) but what will they get back?
An indpenedant Scotland do not know what they will keep in relation to what Scottish citizens (and ultimatley what EU citizens) will be entitled to
For example an independant Scotland may choose a welfare and NHS system similar to Spain's rather than the existing UK model
They cannot discuss any national debt as they really don't have one, at the moment and they owe the UK nothing - it will form part of a settlement between the rest of the UK and Scotland so nothing to advise.
Same as the UK govt cannot give a figure of how much the UK will have to pay back the EU when it leaves
You can't keep secret what you do not know
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Apparently Scotland's exports only €12 billion to the EU per year and £64 billion to the rest of the UK talk about biting the hand that feeds you.
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Hugh Man - As we've been asked nicely by the Mods not to do the immigration issue to death,
My post was not about immigration as such. I was suggesting there exists an endemic resistance to social change in Britain in some sectors of the population and across social classes.
That resistance has led to the calamity of Brexit and represents complete political failure by those in power both now and in the last thirty years.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Tadd1966 Scotland has benefitted greatly from the UK over the years and help run up the national dept.... so I don't think the UK government is going to Let the Scot's off Scott Free Scotland owns £1.6 billion for it's part of the UK national dept and it will have to be paid back in full ,just like the EU is demanding €50 billion from the UK for a divorce settlement.the UK has a national dept of £1.6 Trillion thats £24,900 for every man woman and child in the UK that includes Scotland and Northern Ireland and I don't think the Scot's would be to happy if the SNP stopped the DSS/NHS /and stopped supplying council House's do you. This message was last edited by windtalker on 14/02/2017.
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windtalker
Yes the rest of the UK wil not let them off scott free but the debt as it currently stands is the UK debt no matter who ran it up.
The point is they cannot say to the people of Scotland what that debt will be until negotiations start and then what is agreed by both parties. Maybe they coudl use your figures and simply multiply the £29,400 figure by the 5.3M population of Scotland - who knows
Same for the €50bn some say the EU may claim from the UK (again nothing is on the table yet)
The SNP may not stop DSS/NHS etc. just change the rules as to who is entiltled to these benefits from the UK residency based system to a citizens and contributors system (as Spain does)
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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