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In my opinion the biggest draw to the UK by low paid migrant workers from the EU or anywhere else is not that they are better off by a lot financially when on minimum wage, but the benefit top ups to which they are entitled which make them far better off than staying in their own countries. (Child benefit, Working tax credits, child tax credits). The UK government tried to stop these payments to people coming from the EU to work in the UK, but were overuled by the EU. UK People have paid into the system all their lives yet someone from the EU who has paid nothing into our sytem can come to the UK and claim these benefits immediately.
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I think the UK in the future will have to be even more inclusive and open to the rest of the world than it is now, not less. It will require trade deals with many diverse countries and with these deals comes obligations to allow easier migration of peoples. India has already made that clear.
The idea the UK could reduce its population to 50 million is completely barmy, but then dear old Hugh thinks we all want to live in caravans and eat grass. Whilst Britain loves it’s eccentrics I don’t think it wants to turn the clock back to the nineteen fifties.
The fact is if you want economic progress in the modern world what comes with it is multiculturalism, diversity and increased populations not less.
If you try and create a closed society people with the necessary skills a nation needs will simply leave and go where opportunity and diversity exist in harmony with the existing population.
At the moment I don’t think Britain is at risk from that yet but we live in worrying times with many extremist politicians gaining traction around the world.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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The biggest problem that has been stated on here and many other places is not immigration but un-controlled immigration. There are many of our towns and cities that cannot cope with the number of people that have arrived here. Some peoples answers to that is to build more hospitals, schools etc but who pays for all that? Migration will reduce if we can stop paying extra benefits to people who have not paid into our system.
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the issue of benefits and immigrants in the UK could be easily cured once the UK leaves the EU, and that is to restrict any immigrant from gaining benefits until they have lived and worked in the UK for a minimum of six months. This would stop quite a few who plan on coming here from milking the system, and seasonal migrant workers largely would not be affected, as they are working while here. The only ones i feel it would make little difference to are the ones that come here with the sole intention of commiting crime, money fraud, theft, pick pocketing Etc. These types are not really interested with benefit fraud they are too busy enacting their scams. The thing Brexit would do with these types is make them a lot more visible in the community, and so easier to find and deal with. The problem with most of these law breakers is they see the UK as an easy touch, so they come here to commit their crimes, thinking it will be easy, as even the Police dont carry guns. also they consider the legal profession to most likely be as inefficient as much as most continental police organisations, and as corrupt. They do not realise that the UK has been reforming corruption since the seventies, whereas their police are just starting to go down that road. There is much to consider regarding immigration in the UK, and i feel a lot of legal and official bodies here, and Parliament often miss much of the central issues, and a lot has to change, Brexit or not
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robertt8696
the issue of benefits and immigrants in the UK could be easily cured once the UK leaves the EU, and that is to restrict any immigrant from gaining benefits until they have lived and worked in the UK for a minimum of six months.
The problem with this is it is discriminaton that is the fundamental problem for immigration and it nothing to do with EU or brexit
Apply the same logic to UK citizens and change the system from resident based to contribution similar to what Spain has
If you did this post brexit you would still get people shouting about the unfair system and calling it discrimination especially for in work benefits
Even delaying for 6 months is nothing more than a delay to the welfare bill and some would take jobs for 6 months then stop working once they qualify for benefits
Camerons 4 year idea failed because of this
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Wow, I can't believe it, I agree with you Tadd
"Apply the same logic to UK citizens and change the system from resident based to contribution similar to what Spain has"
The best suggestion on this forum for a long time.
I also agree that 6 months would change nothing - it should be that you can't get out more than you have paid in, the only exceptions being people unable to work through genuine disability.
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Mickeyfinn,
This is becoming tiresome...
Multiculturalism and diversity already existed in the UK, we have never had a closed society, we have been very proud of our tolerant and inclusive society, but the pressures from EU refusal to recognise the impacts inflicted from their intransigence and refusal to accept the realities and adequately respond to the UK's call for timeframes to adjust, ( for instance Cameron originally asked for 13 years not four) for all the aspects previously identified ad infinitum on this thread, have played a major part in threatening to break down the psyche that the majority of UK citizens were rightly proud of. So please don't infer that we don't know how to live in harmony because we've been doing it for YEARS.
You appear to be in denial of aspects that many EU Parliamentarians have finally recognised that if harmony is to be restored across Europe that there will have to be similar arrangements as they have ironically agreed with Canada. In other words a system that makes adequate FAIR provision for " irregular migration trends" and listens to the genuine concerns of citizens and in so doing curbs the rise of extreme elements. In other words stop the intransigent ideology and divisive rhetoric which sadly fuels the extreme elements.
This message was last edited by ads on 23/02/2017.
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"Even delaying for 6 months is nothing more than a delay to the welfare bill and some would take jobs for 6 months then stop working once they qualify for benefits" Tadd1966.
Personally i dont agree that this is the case, as any potential immigrant would be aware of the situation before travelling to the UK, and the type of freeloader who claims benefit would be thinking twice before coming here, and the same type of freeloader wouldnt do six months work before signing for benefits, as making them work for six months is unthinkable to that type of person. a hardened benefit cheat of any country does not have the same thinking and high ideals you have Tadd. It is no way descriminatory, as it would apply to an entrant of the country, and the benefit system is there for a resident, not an immigrant. does being a resident or an immigrant make the person the same? I think not, so there is no descrimination. The descrimination you talk of is hypothetical, a similar situation is the mindset of a fair proportion of Asians when you talk to them. They are second or third generation usually and wax lyrically about "home, back in Pakistan/India/bangladesh", Etc. The problem is they look and sound like Asians, but the point they miss is they are actually BORN on British soil, and by place of birth this makes them English, no matter their heritage. When you consider this, it is descrimination, by the Asian involved against the UK, but does he ever get reported to the race relations board? I have never heard of it.
A six month RESIDENCY requirement for RESIDENTS to claim a countries benefits is no way descriminatory, Spain and other EU member countries dont consider that a person is entitled to anything until 183 days residency (six months) but will give English people financial assistance, as does the UK under EU reciprocal agreements between member states. Driving licences and other legal documents are only recognised by long standing international and EU agreements otherwise they would have no validity at all.
Finally, once we are no longer a member state of the European Union, how can we be descriminating against a EU immigrant, as this regulation would be to protect English Residents in their country of birth, and not an EU resident, an organisation we have left by majority verdict in a national referendum, and no longer contribute to, so i see no descrimination of an English resident. The only way it might be descriminatory is if we enacted such regulations and remained in the EU. Think about it.......
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Robertt8696
Spain do not give benefits after 183 days the system in spain is contribution based and a 2 tier system operates
The uk system is residency based which is what needs to change before any rules such as 6 months can be appplied
Any differential treatment towards a resident from another country eu or not would be discrimination and many people would up in arms
Yes a 6 month might deter some but not if they only have to wait 6 months or will still be better than what they can get at home job or no job
Once an immigrant has right to reside they become a resident even non eu immigrants get that
Illegals immigrants are illegal and most are not granted residency for many reasons brexit will not deter these and whatever assistance the uk gives them will remain
Then we have refugees who are legal residents who get support what do you propose the uk does with them
Brexit is not about immigration or who qualifies for benefits this us a global issue and not the fault of eu membership
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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"Brexit is not about immigration or who qualifies for benefits this us a global issue and not the fault of eu membership " Tadd1966.
If Brexit is not about immigration how come the greater proportion of exiters who voted if asked will happily tell you that they voted to exit so that it would stop immigration problems? You then say;
"The uk system is residency based which is what needs to change before any rules such as 6 months can be appplied
Any differential treatment towards a resident from another country eu or not would be discrimination and many people would up in arms "
It has obviously escaped your attention that most supposedly civilised countries already have similar entrance conditions regarding benefit claiming, and have a probationary period before an imigrant gets access to resident benefits. In addition they also set restrictive terms regarding employment, such as a residents permit will not be granted unless you have a positive offer of work. The Americans run these terms, its called the Green Card, and Australia will not let you have a residential visa unless you have a job sponsor offering work to you personally. Alternatively last time i checked Australia would only allow a residents visa if you started a new business with an injection of at least 250,000 Australian dollars into the country.
If these worldwide terms are not as you put it "differential treatment" and if so as you state
"Any differential treatment towards a resident from another country eu or not would be discrimination and many people would up in arms " that being the case , why are people worldwide not "up in arms" about their evident descrimination with legitimate visa and residency applications that have been refused?
As i said previously, think about it............
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i have just looked at the reserved visa application for Australia at https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/189- an some of the qualifying requirements are that you must be "not yet turned 50 years of age" and have "at least competent English". Does not these two requirements be at the very least descriminatory to a potential immigrant? are all the failed potential Australian emigrants taking the Australian Government to court for descrimination? I havent heard of any recently, or even in the past.
I state again we should apply entry restrictions to any foreigner who attains entrance permission to the UK, and they should be enforcable without descrimination, as the person it applies to, until fulfilling the entry requirements will never be a permanent resident, and once they are, they should then qualify for benefit and residency status, the same as any other resident. I believe its generally broadly called naturalization.
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Just found another page regarding immigration requirements worldwide, http://www.workpermit.com/news/points-based-immigration-systems-around-world-20080306
Note the following extract from the bottom of the page "Other countries, such as Germany and France, require a job offer and other stringent requirements for migrants from outside the European Union to work in their countries" so that being the case if the entry requirements of non EU country applicants are "stringent" compared to within the EU can this be seen as two tiered, and an obvious case of descrimination to non EU residents and open to people being "up in arms" ?
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Yes Maggie made a u turn after media and public pressure
It is not a slur but a fact
You sure?
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Robertt
The majority of immigrants in the uk are not from the eu
Try and get benfits in spain and then you might see and even if you do qualify look at what you would get then compare with a spaniards moving to the uk with or without work
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Tteedd
We are drifting but
http://mg.co.za/article/2013-04-19-00-margaret-thatchers-shameful-support-for-apartheid
And why did Cameron apologise for her policies on apartheid
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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ads - This is becoming tiresome... Multiculturalism and diversity already existed in the UK, we have never had a closed society, we have been very proud of our tolerant and inclusive society,
I didn't suggest it wasn't. I was suggesting there is an expectation in the future to change that and that Brexit is a symptom of an emerging intolerance within the social balance of British society. It's naive to suggest simple control is the only motive.
If Britain decides that isolation is the cure for that the price will be enormous.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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To repeat Mickeyfinn, the emerging intolerance you refer to is indicative of EU intransigence where the cure relies upon EU bureaucrats to make adequate FAIR provision for " irregular migration trends" .... The EU have made such provision within the CETA arrangements so it is hypocritical to deny similar provision for the UK.
Why do you suppose that Canada ensured this was an essential part of their agreement with the EU? No doubt it was to ensure in part that such imbalance leading to any proliferation of intolerance was adequately catered for.
This message was last edited by ads on 24/02/2017.
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Yes but it depends if you share the EU core values of freedom of movement. Why is it 'intransigence' to hold fast to a principle? The UK did not share that principle and is leaving. That is the peoples choice. It is again not any reason or cause to weaken what the EU represents to the majority of Europeans.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Mickeyfinn are you suggesting that you holdfast to a principle that leads to proliferation of intolerance without seeking a solution, when the solution is to factor in and make provision for " irregular migration trends"? It doesn't have to be like this!
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That is your own interpretation. You may believe free movement proliferates intolerance. I believe it contributes positively to any society. If any negative symptoms do exist in reality they are due to failed national governments who did not make sufficient prevision for social change when they signed up to it.
Any negativity then become amplified and exploited by media and politicians on the make.
Free movement is a corner stone of the EU. Weaken it and core values will be lost. That is not intransigence it’s called principal.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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