BREXIT

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29 Oct 2016 9:47 PM by tenerife Star rating. 130 posts Send private message

rob,

           Only if they have a job lined up, or can support themselves.

 


This message was last edited by tenerife on 29/10/2016.



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29 Oct 2016 10:57 PM by mariedav Star rating in Ciudad Quesada. 1219 posts Send private message

tenerife

 Only if they have a job lined up, or can support themselves.

Ah, you mean exactly like the way it is laid down in the EU rules on residencia, then. 





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29 Oct 2016 11:22 PM by Pitby Star rating in Andalucía. 1904 posts Send private message

Pitby´s avatar

smiley But, obviously, not exactly like the way it is laid down in UK rules on residence!!

 





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30 Oct 2016 12:52 AM by mariedav Star rating in Ciudad Quesada. 1219 posts Send private message

Ah, those rules. 

1. Rock up and don't sign on a register of foreign EU citizens.

2. Rock up and be eligible for medical care from day 1 by giving the address of your best mate.

3. Rock up and sign on the dole and collect benefits straight away.

4. Rock up and register for social housing and push the indiginous population down the queue.

5. Rock up and prove you will be a drain on the social security system of your new country.

6. Rock up and get interpreters, social workers, advisors or anyone you want who will help you get as much from the UK taxpayer as you possibly can.

Those rules? 

 





Like 4      
30 Oct 2016 1:33 AM by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1982 posts Send private message

Ads

We are the 5th largest economy in the world, out of around 200 countries, we have near record unemployment (4.9%), and we do actually have a record number IN employment, so clearly we are doing just fine economically.

So I'm going to ask you one simple question.

Q: Do you respect freedom of movement, both into the UK, and into the EU, yes or no?

My answer to this is NO Ads.  

I do think you have asked an important question in a simple way, and I respect that.   I don't want to give great detail to my reply but will do if the question develops in a simple way also.  Thanks for asking. 



_______________________

Best wishes, Brian

 




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30 Oct 2016 2:17 AM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

Briando,

I didn't make that statement or ask that question but Rob_j1 did!!! 

P.s. I'll have a stab at answering in due course when I have time, but it's quite complex so please feel free to expand on your own thoughts Briando!

 

 

 


This message was last edited by ads on 30/10/2016.


This message was last edited by ads on 30/10/2016.



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30 Oct 2016 9:08 AM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

Briando 

On freedom of movement between uk and eu

Do you think the uk should start border control between NI and eire

 

 



_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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30 Oct 2016 11:47 AM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

A brief history of free movement of peoples in Europe from Migration Information. I'm posting it here because there are some misunderstanding that Brexit will change free movement. It is highly probable that it will not given the historical process that brought it about.

The idea that Brexit will role back the history of Europe's evolvement is misguided and overly optimistic for they who believe it is actually a problem. 

In the 1950s, when Europe was beginning to recover from the devastation of World War II and experiencing a period of intense economic growth, labor mobility was again encouraged. Because the lack of skilled workers was seen as a threat to the economy, freedom of movement of qualified industrial workers was included in the treaties founding the European Economic Community (EEC), the predecessor of the current European Union, in 1957.

Over 8 million work permits were issued to foreigners in Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and West Germany (the original six members of the EEC) during the guest-worker period of 1958 to 1972. One-third of the foreign workers came from within the EEC; mainly from Italy, which was lagging behind in industrialization and suffered from high unemployment.

Workers were recruited through bilateral agreements from outside of Europe as well, especially to work in dirty, dangerous, and dull — the so-called 3D — jobs in the building, mining, and transportation sectors. Significant numbers of guest workers, for example, migrated from Turkey to Germany, from Algeria to France, and from the British Commonwealth countries to Britain.

The oil crisis that started in 1973 put an end to the open-doors policy regarding migrant workers, who were welcomed when the economy needed them but were expected to leave when times were hard. To the surprise of the host nations, however, most of the guest workers had come to stay. Moreover, many of these migrants had invited their families to join them in the destination countries, making family ties a more prominent cause for legal migration into Europe than active labor recruitment. This dilemma was neatly summarized by Swiss author Max Frisch: "We asked for workers, but human beings came."

The right of free movement was initially intended for the economically active population: workers who were able to support themselves in the destination country. However, the texts of the founding treaties of the EEC, as well as the implementation of secondary legislation, left room for interpretation.

For years, European citizens have actively tested the boundaries of free mobility by challenging national administrative decisions in the European Court of Justice, which has played a fundamental role in widening the scope of free movement since the 1970s.

The rulings of the court since that time have gradually shifted policy from protecting primarily free movement of workers to the free movement of persons. In numerous individual cases, the court ruled that a Member State of the EEC could not deny entry to or deport a citizen of another EEC state on the basis of personal conduct unless that conduct would warrant equally punitive action if it were undertaken by a citizen of the former state.

The very definition of "worker" was also gradually expanded to include not only workers in industry, but those in seasonal or short-term employment and apprenticeship placements in Member States as well. Then in 1990, freedom of movement came to be guaranteed for students, pensioners, and the unemployed, as well as for their families.

The process of establishing freedom of movement for all nationals of Member States was finalized with the signing of the Maastricht Treaty in 1992, which created the European Union (EU) and introduced the concept of a common European citizenship.

Read more here: www.migrationpolicy.org/article/free-movement-europe-past-and-present


This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 30/10/2016.

_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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30 Oct 2016 12:09 PM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

So much information  and for me it just shows how bad this whole thing us

Very few people understand the history the current status and especially what the options are for the future or the long term implications 

Too much emotional voting and lack of focus or clarity

Bottom line a complete mess



_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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30 Oct 2016 12:28 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

The purpose of posting some history of free movement was to illustrate how the process evolved since WW11 from mutual economic necessity. That necessity for Britain will still be there long after Brexit is a done deal.

Here is but one nationalities example. Germans in the UK are one of the biggest minorities. There are around 300,000 German born citizens currently living and working in the country.  Among the teaching staff in British universities are 5,250 academics from Germany – the largest group of foreigners teaching and researching in the UK. Every tenth student enrolled in British universities has a German passport.

German manufacturers contribute substantially to the UK economy; Will companies like Siemens, BMW and Deutsche Bahn Schenker, who have large subsidiaries all over the UK, pull back if the country is no longer a member of the European single market? Or will they stay whatever it costs? Or will the government promise as sweetheart deal such as Nissan received.

Brexit may mean Brexit in terms of political rhetoric but the actuality will be very different. History illuminates the path for the future. No sensible government can ignore the positive benefits of free movement of peoples.

 

 


This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 30/10/2016.

_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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30 Oct 2016 12:36 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

Much migrant labour in West Germany came from Turkey. But only males for a fixed term, who lived in Hostals. They sent the money they earnt back to Turkey. Any that 'miss-behaved' were quickly sent back to Turkey. Only the few that married Germans remained in Germany at the end of their contracts. Migrants from Italy (and even Franco's Spain) were better treated and many stayed in Germany. We did not need the same extra labour as our industry was not re-developing at the same rate (if at all) but London transport encouraged West Indians to come because it had trouble recuiting for the buses and underground in London These people often brought their families and were entitled to stay in the UK.

In The UK in 1958 we had a dock strike, we were down to less tha 10 days supplies of food. The population was around 48 million and it was estimated that we could only feed 60% of them from our own resources. Goverment ministers talked of encouraging people to emigrate to Australia and New Zealand. Indeed at the time Australia was offering the £100 package to immigrants from the UK. How long could we feed 66 million for now?





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30 Oct 2016 12:36 PM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

Mickyfinn

Yes it was a good post and apologies I was not criticising you or your post 



_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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30 Oct 2016 12:44 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

Simens is in the UK mainly because it bought Plessey and parts of GEC Marconi.

These firms export around the world as well as supplying the UK. There is no reason to believe that German susidiaries will be treated any differently than American subsidiaries are treated now after we exit the EU. Project Fear is alive and well!





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30 Oct 2016 12:56 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

"Or will the government promise as sweetheart deal such as Nissan received."

 

What do you know that no one else does Micky?

 

The opposition was demanding a special deal for Nissan. Now it is decrying a Nissan deal that, as far as we know, exists only in their imagination. But perhaps you know more?





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30 Oct 2016 1:02 PM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

Tteedd 

One the reasons american subsidiaries are in the uk is access to the eu

Many also have subsidiaries in other eu states so I'd they get stuck with duties then they may well move from u to another state and downsize uk operation supply g only the uk market 

Same for many eu owned subsidiaries unless they get some assurance from uk govt

Nissan must gave gotten something and we will find out eventually 

Secrecy is not the best way and more uncertainty will fuel rumours and create more mess and mistrust 

 



_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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30 Oct 2016 1:28 PM by Destry Star rating in MYOB . 289 posts Send private message

When the UK pumps money into publicly owned busineses the end product is usually bad news for the tax payer, if the government has done a deal with Nissan then good on them, at least Nissan can run a business, wasn't it 27 trade union required to build a British Leyland vehicle?



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IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT. THANK YOU.



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30 Oct 2016 1:39 PM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

If they are pumping money into a privately owned company it should be completely transparent now and not wait until some undercover report reporter exposes them we have had enough of that recently 

Whatever the govt has agreed or not with Nissan it should be published officially



_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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30 Oct 2016 2:31 PM by baz1946 Star rating. 2327 posts Send private message

A bombshell report warning that 42,000 jobs would be lost if Nissan pulled out of Britain was handed to Ministers just before the Japanese car giant announced last week it was staying.

One source who saw the contents said ‘hair went up on end’ when the Government saw the findings.

Nissan employs 6,000 at its Sunderland plant, but the report warned that tens of thousands more jobs were at risk.

From the Daily Mail so no doubt a pack of lies.

 





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30 Oct 2016 2:41 PM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

baz

something happened between nissan and the govt

until both parties come clean and announce exactly what was agreed there will be rumours and even lies

this secrecy cannot go on



_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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30 Oct 2016 2:54 PM by baz1946 Star rating. 2327 posts Send private message

A brief history of free movement of peoples in Europe from Migration Information. I'm posting it here because there are some misunderstanding that Brexit will change free movement. It is highly probable that it will not given the historical process that brought it about.

Mickyfinn, sorry but you haven't a clue about what you keep going on about over free movement, you ignore the facts presented to you, you obversely haven't watched the news or read any papers.

No one cares about the free movement of genuine people from within the EU, like you know the countries in the EU, just because all these people from all over the world shacked up in France doesn't make them from Europe, or Europeans, these are the one's that are ruining every country they decide to stay in, and yes you wont believe it but the reason they want to get to the UK is because the UK will give them so much.

I work with many of these for a day a week, none are genuinely from the EU,  German / French / Spanish and so on, I have just worked / helped out for two weeks in a top London College you could count the white English on one hand, this place has thousands of students for various courses, next to none with go any further to get any kind of work, as many I spoke with only want the passport to live and stay in the UK.

Bleat on all you want about how good free movement is but first understand what it is.

 





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