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as has been said before
EU citiznes come to UK for 2 reasons and the main one is for work
secondly they get generous in work benefits
this is NOT a EU problem it is the fault of the over genrous state welfare sytem the UK has
EU citizens will still come to UK for work and benefits no mater which way the vote goes
If the UK exits and limist the number of EU citizens coming in by whatever method many will still come and get in work benefist etc (even after 4 years) assuming the economy grows (which I doubt)
the amount EU citizens claim is a small percentage of the overall welfare bill and even if EU immigration is reduced by 90% the impact on the UK welfare bill will be negligible
non EU immigration wil also continue and these come to the UK for the same 2 reasons as EU citizens
with one additional reason that of persecution in their own country
immigration is not a really discriminator to vote either way as no matter the result immigration issues will still remain
the solution to immigration is a complete overhaul of the UK welfare benefit system and get the longterm unemployed back to work and the UK has the power to do this NOW.
The figures paid to many familes are a disgrace for any nation
Many examples of what to replace UK benefits system with are available from many other EU states such as Spain
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I kind of agree with that Tadd. Can I add some more into the mix here.
The benefits received in the UK include a huge amount of rent payments for people to live in housing, council or private. This figure paid to the landlords / owners of the properties is unbelievably higher the further you move south of the country, London is gobbling up an extortionate amount in rent rebates, paid from the tax of the people. All this goes to the private owners who don't give a stuff about anything but themselves
The further north you go, the more of the taxation charged to the people with more modest incomes is used to subsidise living in the south of the country to pay these private owners a sum they can then use to buy their Bentleys and go to Barbados.
Living here in Yorkshire, I will expect a referendum after any leave vote comes in, to take ourselves away from the government in London and these vultures because we can do better than that
We can live with each other in complete harmony then, mind you I'm not sure about keeping Lancashire, they can't play cricket well enough. I'm not sure about the Geordies either, or come to think of it, Sheffield and Leeds are a bit peculiar..
I think I may stick a St George flag, NO make that a Yorkshire flag in my garden, build a big Donald Trump wall and try and exist without talking to anyone who is in any way different to me. That will sort it out I'm sure.
Am I on the right path to righteousness here?
This message was last edited by briando55 on 10/06/2016.
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Best wishes, Brian
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Tadd
I think you may be missing the point:
The infrastructure and services are not there to support the present or future influx.
If there is no commitment to 'free movement' then our hands are no longer tied and we can put into place what is necessary to take people in sensibly, you don't test water pressure by turning the tap on full, you turn it on gradually and look for problems. The 'free movement' is an EU problem, without it we can manage it if we have the will.
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I kind of agree with that Tadd. Can I add some more into the mix here.
The benefits received in the UK include a huge amount of rent payments for people to live in housing, council or private. This figure paid to the landlords / owners of the properties is unbelievably higher the further you move south of the country, London is gobbling up an extortionate amount in rent rebates, paid from the tax of the people. All this goes to the private owners who don't give a stuff about anything but themselves
The further north you go, the more of the taxation charged to the people with more modest incomes is used to subsidise living in the south of the country to pay these private owners a sum they can then use to buy their Bentleys and go to Barbados.
Living here in Yorkshire, I will expect a referendum after any leave vote comes in, to take ourselves away from the government in London and these vultures because we can do better than that
We can live with each other in complete harmony then, mind you I'm not sure about keeping Lancashire, they can't play cricket well enough. I'm not sure about the Geordies either, or come to think of it, Sheffield and Leeds are a bit peculiar..
I think I may stick a St George flag, NO make that a Yorkshire flag in my garden, build a big Donald Trump wall and try and exist without talking to anyone who is in any way different to me. That will sort it out I'm sure.
Am I on the right path to righteousness here?
This message was last edited by briando55 on 10/06/2016.
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Best wishes, Brian
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So, the German finance minister has said the UK won't be offered the same deal as Norway or Switzerland. Is he just being spiteful, or does it show what power Germany has in the EU? What they want they get. Who in their right mind would want to be part of such a club?
This message was last edited by tenerife on 10/06/2016.
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bigal
sorry but if teh UK did not have such a generous welfare state system then immigartion fo those who come for benfits would dry up.
freedom of movement is a god idea and help resource shortfalls but when you give welfare bonuses (some call them salary uplifts) like the UK do then you have to give it to all who work in UK and that is a UK decsion (fault) NOT the EU
even if the UK exits these benefits will still be available to all the EU citzens currently in the UK and those who continue to arrive to fill the jobs if the jobs still exist after an exit! If teh jobs dissapear then teh EU citizens who are in the UK now will get unemplyment benefits I doubt they will be deported and rely on the UK state for everything until they manage to find work back in their home country
the problem of infrastructre and services will still exist for all the same reasons
not many other EU country gives as much to their own or others
tellme what wil teh UK put in their wonhands to controil this? Will they actullay start deporting unemployed EU citizens who have lost (or if/when they lose) their jobs?
None EU citizens are a far greater burden than EU citiznes on the tax payer and this again will not go away and the Uk wil not have the funds or support from the EU to manage this global problem and will have to manage on their own if they exit unless they can get a deal like Turkey!
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sorry but if teh UK did not have such a generous welfare state system then immigartion fo those who come for benfits would dry up.
I am sure that the generous benefits were based on the UK being a successful economy and that we would be 'looking after our own', by that I mean we all contirbuted knowing that at some point we may need to benefit from those contributions. We never for one moment belived we would be building up a fund that everyone could dip into.
freedom of movement is a god idea and help resource shortfalls but when you give welfare bonuses (some call them salary uplifts) like the UK do then you have to give it to all who work in UK and that is a UK decsion (fault) NOT the EU
Resoucing shortfalls is a briiliant idea, 'free movement' is not resourcing shortfalls but is actually coming in the hope of a job no matter that it may keep a resident out of work.
even if the UK exits these benefits will still be available to all the EU citzens currently in the UK and those who continue to arrive to fill the jobs if the jobs still exist after an exit! If teh jobs dissapear then teh EU citizens who are in the UK now will get unemplyment benefits I doubt they will be deported and rely on the UK state for everything until they manage to find work back in their home country.
I have no problem with the people who are already here being given benefits if it is warranted and have no wish to see them extradited, we must take the responsibility of our elected governments and their decisions and so must support the people that are already legally here.
the problem of infrastructre and services will still exist for all the same reasons.
The problem if we exit will not get any worse, we cannot say that at the moment, if we have the will and our hands untied we can make things better.
not many other EU country gives as much to their own or others
tellme what wil teh UK put in their wonhands to controil this? Will they actullay start deporting unemployed EU citizens who have lost (or if/when they lose) their jobs?
Same reply as above , no wish to deport legal imiigrants already living here.
None EU citizens are a far greater burden than EU citiznes on the tax payer and this again will not go away and the Uk wil not have the funds or support from the EU to manage this global problem and will have to manage on their own if they exit unless they can get a deal like Turkey!
All imigrants if they are allowed into the country without a job or the means to provide for themselves would be a burden and I make no comparison between the two, except for the fact that we have an obligation at the moment to take in ALL EU citizens if they desire to come here with no cap or upper limit.
If you cannot see that this is wrong then you are in complete denial.
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Erm, have I missed something? From the PM speech to parliament 19th Feb.
We have also secured a breakthrough agreement for Britain to reduce the unnatural draw that our benefits system exerts across Europe.
We have already made sure that EU migrants cannot claim the new unemployment benefit, Universal Credit, while looking for work.
And those coming from the EU who haven’t found work within 6 months can now be required to leave.
Today we have established a new emergency brake so that EU migrants will have to wait 4 years until they have full access to our benefits.
This finally puts an end to the idea that people can come to our country and get something for nothing.
Doesn't that go someway to alleviating the problem?
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No Babaol, it does not.
If all that DC has stated comes true and is set in stone, it still does not tackles the infrastructure problem and this includes services.
Before you reply with 'this is a UK problem', it is not it is the EU's insistence on free movement that is the problem.
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You put
I have no problem with the people who are already here being given benefits if it is warranted and have no wish to see them extradited, we must take the responsibility of our elected governments and their decisions and so must support the people that are already legally here.
So it's the future ones you have concerns with. Doesn't that statement address that?
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the infrastructure and services have to be a UK problem as these are needed for those who are doing the work, filling tha vacanices and paying the taxes no matter what their nationality is.
Unless of course we get the millions of Brits off benefits and filling the job vacancies, stop paying benfits to thsoe who can work and stop giving in work benefits to top up low salaries for ALL - and spend some money on training people instead of saddling them with huge debts to study and train (another subject)
If the UK stays maybe it has a case to get EU funds to help with these sevices etc.
The UK voted on freedom of movement and agreed it along with all other member states
This problem will not go away whilst the UK keep paying out over generous benefits to millions
even DC's agreement is only a stay of execution for 4 years for the benefits bill, many will see it worth waiting for and many who already live and work in the UK will still get these benefits no matter the vote
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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EU referendum: Brexit would see UK excluded from single market, German finance minister warns
Wolfgang Schäuble warns Brexit vote would mean 'Out is Out' for EU single market access
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-brexit-would-see-uk-excluded-from-single-market-german-finance-minister-warns-a7074341.html
Can I ask does the German Finance Minister have the democratic authority to speak so authorititively on behalf of 27 member states, by suggesting this exclusion from the single market without consulting member states EU citizens, and if so does this not pose even more cause for concern in terms of the power of German officialdom and how in reality EU citizens voices might be being undermined in this process?
Does this not in effect reinforce British citizens fears re erosion of citizens democratic rights and the decision making process within the European Union?
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It's reasonable to assume that since Germany is by far the most powerful country in the EU, and post exit the biggest contributor ( as it is now) , it will move to protect the integrity of the single market (at some initial cost to it's own economy) and ultimately it's own national interest, as others think about doing the same. There is nothing to suppose that these will be the consequences of Brexit that will be played out across Europe. Listening to the level of debate in the UK, if the UK were in Germany's shoes, would it do any different?
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Scollins
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Boabal
Hugh said:
'350M gross' - so what are you whinging about.
Yes we get a rebate. Yes money is paid to our farmers and others, and yes it was misleading to put the gross figure on the bus without qualification.
But:
It is a real figure from EU sources and it is a bit short of what it actually should be.
The rebate is being whittled away and the EU politicians were saying that it would have to go, before the question of a referendum came up.
The payment will go up massively when the next tranch of countries join (I will not give the estimate or you will say I am making it up).
If we leave we will be free to spend it as we wish (I will not say on the NHS as that is always labled a lie).
Use of this genuine figure is nowhere like as bad as the scare stories of recession and likelihood of war which are totally fabricated and have no basis in fact.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 10/06/2016.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 10/06/2016.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 10/06/2016.
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This is not about to be won or lost on statistics, one good benefits/immigration deal by Cameron could swing it, but where is it? Boris didn't lose it during the tv rock throwing show, despite bigoted inner reviews, Kate Hoey could be a viable alternative to Corbyn as Labour Leader and she could out other closet Labour outers, it's already started in South Yorkshire, but it ain't them that will decide it. A low turn out due to bad weather could be good for the outers, a bit of rain never stopped commited voters from turning out, conversally I can see referendum barbecues at local pubs and back gardens, if the weather permits, perhaps the 24th would have been a better choice of date, giving them a weekend to recover. 
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Whaaa. You guys got nothin better to do on a Friday night. Even BJ AND DC are out partying up.
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Scollins you make reference to Germany being the most powerful EU country and biggest contributor but equally isn't Germany's consistent surplus of concern in terms of macroeconomic imbalance and the impact on other eurozone countries?
"Germany’s current account surplus is out of control. The European Commission’s Spring forecasts show that it will smash all previous records this year, reaching a modern-era high of 7.9pc of GDP. It will still be 7.7pc in 2016.
Vague assurances that the surplus would fall over time have once again come to nothing. The country is now the biggest single violator of the eurozone stability rules. It would face punitive sanctions if EU treaty law was enforced.
If not, cynics might justifiably conclude that big countries play by their own rules in Europe, and that Germany can defy all rules.
The EMU punishment machinery is highly political, in any case. The story of the EMU debt crisis is that the authorities persistently enforce a creditor agenda rather than macro-economic welfare (an entirely different matter).
This is the fifth consecutive year that Germany’s surplus has been above 6pc of GDP. The EU’s Macroeconomic Imbalance Procedure states that the Commission should launch infringement proceedings if this occurs for three years in a row, unless there is a clear reason not to."
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I have no idea what you guys are going on about now, and I suspect that were it not for the cut and paste options, neither would you!!!
Im pretty disgusted about the behaviour of some of our football followers in Marseille over the last couple of nights. One reason the EU will not lose any sleep over us going. Stupid brats who cant hold alcohol and have no brains, yes they are too much alike.
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Best wishes, Brian
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I completely relate to what you have just commented briando55, but these hidden complexities associated with EU economics appear to have major implications on member states, but they are never fully explained in language that citizens can comprehend. For instance the EU stability and growth pact is mind blowing in its complexity see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stability_and_Growth_Pact
There were hidden complex financial arrangements associated with the last financial crisis from which we are all now paying the price in terms of austerity measures. Therefore isn't it essential that awareness needs to be heightened and lessons learned from risks associated with hidden financial complexities?
With this in mind therefore perhaps the question to ask is, are the warnings of a eurozone crisis realistic and will this inevitably cause a downward spiral for all eurozone countries, but in that "inevitable process" will this place us at risk also if we remain in the European Union, even though we are not part of the eurozone?
Don't our politicians from all political persuasions owe us truthful explanations in this regard? Why would they deny or attempt to hide such important facts from us? Do they fully comprehend the complexities themselves?
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