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Had it not been for Cameron playing the referendum card in order to win an overall electoral majority, we wouldn't have been fortunate enough to be in our current position, everything will be sorted out post Article 50, I wonder how many other nations will follow us.
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"I simply do not know what the Brits want: they seem to want access to the single market and limits to immigration," a senior diplomat from an EU member said on condition of anonymity. "Beyond that, I am unsure. It is all unclear. Perhaps it is a great cynical strategy to be unclear but I am not convinced."
...............
Dont believe everything senior EU diplomats tell you, especially anonymous ones, they still think all is working well with the Euro and the EU economies, they haven't looked at unemployment levels in many nations and the haven't checked on the Financial controls that all EU nations are supposed to adhere to, but don't and they are sure as hell not noticing the political upheaval, rearing its head among voters in Europe.
Whatever next?
I suppose if the EU tried to tell you there is no such thing as Father Christmas, you would believe them!
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Well if all you want for Christmas is Brexit I've got some good news and some bad news. Which do you want first?
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" Unless and until an anonymous EU Diplomat can produce some proof to back up his claim the public should treat such statements with the contempt they deserve. Newspapers and the internet are stuffed full of such conspiracy theories and sadly some people believe them."
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Mmmmm... Hugh sure I have seen that comment somewhere before!!!
But I must be wrong, surely no-one would not practice what they preach...would they?
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Well if all you want for Christmas is Brexit I've got some good news and some bad news. Which do you want first?
The good news BREXIT will happen, the bad news is it won't happen till after Christmas.
This message was last edited by BigAl2015 on 15/12/2016.
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An early Brexit casualty?
The EU is preparing rule changes that could deprive London of one of its flagship financial businesses by enabling territorial restrictions on the clearing of some euro-denominated transactions even before Britain leaves the bloc.
While the precise form of intervention is undecided, the European Commission is considering backing legal changes to give the European Central Bank a remit over the location of key market infrastructure.
The move is likely to be seen as a provocation by the UK, which fought hard for years to fend off French-led attempts to relocate Euro clearing to the single currency area.
French officials are pushing for restrictions on clearing to be included in legislative proposals scheduled for this spring — shortly after Britain says it will initiate the formal Article 50 exit process. In any case, other Eurozone and EU officials say a move to restrict euro-clearing outside the Eurozone is likely before Britain’s expected withdrawal from the EU in 2019.
London is the world’s biggest centre for clearing euro derivatives, handling three quarters of all transactions, with an average daily value of $573bn, according to an Intercontinental Exchange (ICE) paper recently circulated to EU member states.
FT 13 december.
In banking and finance clearing denotes all activities from the time a commitment is made for a transaction until it is settled. Clearing of payments is necessary to turn the promise of payment (for example, in the form of a cheque or electronic payment request) into actual movement of money from one bank to another.
Euro clearing contributes a considerable sum eah year to Britains GDP. It will represent a beginning in Britains decline of status around the world post Brexit
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 15/12/2016.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Read how 1.2 million expat Britons feel about Brexit. Had these British people, who are just as British as anyone else been given the vote in the referendum,the result might have been different. Expats including myself were disenfranchised by the system and that is not democracy.
There is a lot of anger out here.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/15/britons-expats-europe-how-brexit-affect-them
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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mickyfinn
I reda the article but full of uncertainites, guesswork and lack of knowldege by the author - typical media spin / rubbish and scaremongering
for example
Countries such as Spain do not recognise dual nationality, so if any of the 300,000 British people registered in the country opt to swap their passports will they deny themselves the future right to return to Britain?
Which is incorrect - we have discussed this many times before
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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I think the point of the article is not for the newspaper to publish the legal facts of Brexit. More to illustrates the human anxiety and real personal concerns be they justified or not that Brexit is creating in ordinary British people who have chosen a different life in Europe. A kind of Vox Pop if you like.
These people can always come to forums such as these for the facts.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Mickyfinn
To some point I agree about raising the fears of people but in the same frame the newspaper should not be reproducing these concerns where there are clear errors in the public’s fears.
It would not have been difficult to state the truth on dual citizenship as far as the UK rules are concerned.
All it has done is emphasised the fear and potentially misinforming others who may read the article and who do not have access to forums such as these
Which in my opinion is either irresponsible of the author (editor/ newspaper) and/or ignorance of the fcats. Either way they are in the wrong to print such a statement
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Even if all the long term expats who did not get to vote had been allowed to vote and they had all voted to remain (unlikely) there would not have been enough of them to change the outcome. The daydream b*leavers would have still won the day. Just on a smaller margin.
I agree that there is terrible uncertainty for expats. It is troubling at best.
My bigger concern is how the 13 million who did not but could have voted feel. It is their own fault if they are unhappy with the result; they could have made a difference. Proportionately more young people voted to remain and also did not vote. If the terms of Brexit do not suit this age group then I fear a massive social backlash.
Whilst everyone moves along the aging curve at the same rate, it is unlikely that anyone is going to change their vote. In five years time it is unlikely that a 55 year old will vote leave when they turn 60 when they voted to remain at age 55 or vice versa.
But. It is highly likely that a 20 year old who did not vote at age 20 will vote at age 25 and that their view will largely stay the same. In essence there is a rolling percentage of undeclared remainers that will be coming through the pipeline. This is a major issue for the government and the whole country. If younger people's aspirations are thwarted by a bad Brexit outcome then you will see social unrest and voter backlash. Let's face it. There is never going to be more than a handful of 70 year olds who would actually partake in violent protests or civil disobedience. The same is not true of 20 to 25 year olds.
Brexit will take a very lone time to come to fruition. That is why the daydream b*leavers are in such a rush to get it started. Given just five years, there will be sufficient undeclareds becoming actual voters to turn the tide in favour of remain. People can work the statistics for themselves. The arithmetic is straight forward. If Brexit leaves us with higher unemployment (which appears to be universally accepted by all parties) less mobility opportunities and a lower standard of living then there will be a call to reverse it lead by younger voters who will see that they actually can call the shots if they excercise their rights.
Hardline Brexiters are in the minority already. In the general populace and massively so in Parliament. If Labour or Lib Dems can appeal to the first time voters then they certainly can take control of Parliament. The days of a Tory majority could well be numbered and the idea that young first time voters would rally behind UKIP to put them in power are just a fantasy. You only need to look at Corbyn supporters to see what I am saying put in practise. Young people at rally's.
The issue of Brexit may well have a generation to run. Or just five years. But I can't see it being a long term thing. Our children will decide for themselves what is right for them despite any wisdom we on a forum like this profess to hold.
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Tadd.
To some point I agree about raising the fears of people but in the same frame the newspaper should not be reproducing these concerns where there are clear errors in the public’s fears.
Sorry to labour this point. Far be it for me to defend newspapers. I think the majority of them publish nonsense. However to accede to your expectation they would need to publish rebuttals to every Vox Pop segment they printed. That would make it unreadable.
In this instance they are simply saying “this is what some ex-pats think or believe” nothing more. Forums do the same but with less detail.
Imagine on the TV news a reporter doing street opinions then some presenter having to point out the inaccuracies of what they said. Boring and impractical at best. Or you could argue they should not publish anyone’s opinion. What’s that but censorship.
The whole point of Vox Pop's is the public’s interest in other people’s opinions right or wrong and in this example entirely on one side of the debate.
Perry.
If expats had voted it would have reduced to leaver majority considerably and made it less politically damaging to either ignore the result or negotiate a soft Brexit.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 15/12/2016.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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perrypower
good post and the divisions acros the UK are getting greater and the artcile that was posted by MF shwos that even familes are in divisive mode which is not goods
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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If a snap general election was triggered by a parliamentoty vote that overturned the referendum result, Corbyn would have no choice but to force the whip on Labour MP's to vote LEAVE. Either that or a wipe out of what is left of Labour support and credibility.
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IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.
THANK YOU.
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It sadly appears that mass unemployment and lower standard of living is already occuring for Southern Member States under the EU system, so would you have it that a downward spiral for all member states is the answer, if major and well overdue reform of a failing system is being resisted in such an intransigent and alienating fashion?
Is the EU now advocating divide and rule and happy to undermine cohesion within member states, to create fear and resentment rather than heed the calls for major reform of treaty arrangements, to abide by stability mechanisms intended to protect?
Citizens should be coming together to resist this intransigence and alienation from the EU bureaucrats whose rhetoric appears content to divide and rule in this manner.
IMHO such hypocrisy should be brought to the fore, and as Tadd has highlighted we need dishonest reporting and misinformation "outed" at every opportunity.
There have been attempts to manipulate the truth on several occasions which is why live visual debates hosted by respected interviewers, covering all manner of issues, in various regions across the UK, where people had their voices heard from all perspectives, proved to be of great educational value in the referendum debates. Where evidence could be discussed, debated, clarified where necessary, and not be so easily manipulated by those with hidden agendas.
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Surely intransigence and outright opposition is what is required when a vocal group shouts that immigration or a particular group are the cause of all our woes.
Cohesion achieved by saying we need homogenous, or home born only is not cohesion of society but the antithesis of that noble cause. Diversity will always be seen as negative by some people. That is why I can never be a daydream b*leaver ads.
Tribal cohesion does not work. It just leads to conflict. That is why the pillar of free movement has and will always be a core virtue of the EU.
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ads
It sadly appears that mass unemployment and lower standard of living is already occuring for Southern Member States under the EU system, so would you have it that a downward spiral for all member states is the answer, if major and well overdue reform of a failing system is being resisted in such an intransigent and alienating fashion?
The same could be said for and apply to many areas in the UK (the north south divide etc.) under the current (and probably the future) UK system
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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There is no comparison to the ability to gain democratic and practical change to respond to changing circumstances in the UK with that provided by the EU system, given voices and opinions from our own Parliamentary representatives in the UK are expressed covering all our regions within our own Parliament each week, when we can see and identify and discuss local and firsthand concerns within our own Parliamentary constituencies by contacting and meeting with our local representatives whenever we need, etc.
The EU appear far too removed and unaccountable to their citizens in terms of the impact on their everyday lives, with what appears as ideological and unrealistic aspirations, with inflexibility at the core of its current structure that take far too little account of citizens real and genuine firsthand concerns.
A vocal group does not shout for non diversity in the UK, it shouts for greater diversity and harmony, for reform and to listen to firsthand concerns against EU intransigence so as to build greater flexibility into its structure by forward planning and transient controls essential to continue and enjoy the diverse nation that the UK has become. A nation that was working in greater harmony before the EU policies that allowed swift movements without adequate forward planning or reassessment of far wider perspectives to take into account the debts of nation states, the unemployment ratios of member states, the differentials of wage values and living standards, the benefit structures in different member states, the infrastructure, language differences, cultural differences, population spreads, diversity of economies, a whole host of differences that cannot be met by a one size fits all policy.
The UK has always prided itself on inclusivity and cohesion which if not careful could be totally undermined by such divisive talk as has been spoken of late by those who appear intent on focusing on a negative and uncompromising agenda, where compromise and requirement for flexibility and timely transition, to seek mutually acceptable arrangements sadly plays little part.
This message was last edited by ads on 15/12/2016.
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ads
There is no comparison to the ability to gain democratic and practical change to respond to changing circumstances in the UK with that provided by the EU system, given voices and opinions from our own Parliamentary representatives in the UK are expressed covering all our regions within our own Parliament each week, when we can see and identify and discuss local and firsthand concerns within our own Parliamentary constituencies by contacting and meeting with our local representatives whenever we need, etc.
We all have similar access to your MEP's as you do to your MP's as we do with electing MP's & MEP's - what influence either really have is up for debate. Howeve, there have been many instances where both MP's and MEP's have acted in similar ways on behalf of their constituents
A couple of examples after a quick search (there are many many others)
http://mollymep.org.uk/2016/11/30/new-vat-threshold-for-micro-businesses-start-ups/
http://rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news/15026/rochdale-mep-wins-%E2%82%AC10billion-vote-to-fight-climate-change
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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