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baz a bit of a slip
' Wow...England is doing okay now...Best we all think about leaving now '
Well as I said before the decicoion to leave or stay will be made by the English vote irrespective of the vote by the other 3 nation of the UK unless it is a very low turn out of English voters
If the English decide to leave and the other 3 nations then decide to stay then England could well be on its own.
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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How and when are monies currently paid to the EU, and if Brexit occurs is there any facility to have EU payments returned? Or will these EU payments continue to be paid during the transition period and all of these practical details will form part of any agreement?
Likewise will all EU laws and regulations have to be enforced during this ongoing transition period or will the British be exempt under special measures?
Has the latest short-term financial assessment taken into account the ongoing criteria relating to this transitional period? I.e. continuing free trade agreements, ongoing eu payments, etc. On what criteria has this assessment been made?
The voting public deserve to know such details relating to this latest assessment as trust appears at an all-time low in terms of believing any presented facts.
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Tad1966
I take exception to you saying that Mickfinn is being attacked in any way, shape or form.
Looking back on this thread for the last day or soo I can only see that Micky has been 'questioned' regarding his piece relating to an article in the 'Mail'.
If you look back over the last week or so you will see that Micky always questions anyone that realets articles from the Daily or Sunday Mail. It should then go without saying that he should be questioned when he all of a sudden starts quoting from the paper that he say's shouldn't be trusted.
If I am wrong and you can see a contribution in this thread over the last 2 days that 'attacks' Micky then please point out this offending article, I will be the first to apologise if I have 'attacked Micky'.
As for MickyFinn
starting your previous article:
I shall continue to ignore all negative personal comments directed at me
is somewhat shameful and you should be ashamed if this is in response to being pulled up about the article you quote from the Mail.
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ads
you are corrcetthere is simply not enough detail on many things to warrant or support an exit vote -
with an in vote we know what we will be getting and will still have a seat at the table
the entire vote is becoming a joke and a waste of tax payers money on massive campaigns
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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The outstanding questions remain, has the civil service in effect denied the out campaigners of the necessary financial detail to provide a realistic assessment re Brexit, in which case is this morally reprehensible, and as such can we believe the Govt ongoing analyses?
What criteria has been used upon which the in campaign have made their most recent short-term assessment. Does it include for example ongoing free trade agreements with the EU during this transitional period?
Is the Govt "allowed to " better control our borders during this interim transition, and if so have the financial implications associated with this been taken into account?
Are there any special measures that apply during this transitional period that impact the financial assessments and if so what are they?
So many factors need clarification before we can believe Govt analysis.
This message was last edited by ads on 23/05/2016.
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So many factors need clarification before we can believe Govt analysis
ads you have a point but the fact remains we more or less know what to expect if we stay - little change to what we have now
the eixters need to produce more clarification to many more questions
if we do exit then this govt analysis will remain as they will still be in charge and will make all the decisions the exiters can't make now
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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You’re not alone ads. Here are some quotes from a book review which may describe your dilemma. It strikes a chord with some of the comments on here.
Being Wrong a new book byKathryn Schultz ranges widely over our human capacity for getting things wrong and examines the evolutionary, social and psychological factors that lead us to error and keep us there. We are hardwired to make snap judgements based on limited information; we suffer from confirmation biases that filter evidence to reinforce our preconceptions; and we are buffeted by social pressures to conform with our ingroups and to discount the views of outsiders. These characteristics are being exercised to the full in our mental machinations over Brexit.
But I can’t be sure I’m right about my decision. Not only is it difficult to disentangle the influences of my background, but there also are so many interlocking issues at stake that I haven’t been able to examine in detail. Exactly how democratic is the EU? What are the economic risks to Britain of the Eurozone crisis? Is EU immigration sustainable or unbalanced in the long term? I’d like to get my head around all of this. I’m responsible adult – and a scientist to boot – and I want to make the right decision, but it’s such hard work. I don’t have the time to figure all this stuff out for myself, and so I have to rely on the experts.
Fortunately, in the Brexit debate you don’t have to try very hard to find experts or authority figures. That’s why the Remain camp has been so keen to have the President of the United States, and the Governor of the Bank of England and the Director of the International Monetary Fund warn of the detrimental effects of leaving the EU – and why Vote Leave has tried so hard to discredit their remarks. The trouble with experts or authority figures is that people will tend to accept or reject those who are in sympathy with their prejudices.
A bit like religious faith really you believe in it or not. Faith is not a provable fact so you background, predjudices and environmental influences impact your judgement. Brexit is not God of course but faith in it remains undoubted.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 23/05/2016.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Alternatively-
Bremain is not God of course but faith in it remains undoubted.
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The irony is that if those providing evidence are all part of a political and financial elite whose self interests are to remain, and are doing all in their power to try and discredit and deny access to information, only providing a one sided financial assessment, how can this be deemed democratic? Moreover just how independent are they in this equation?
Voters see the existing system in the UK in complete disarray, partly as a consequence of reprehensible actions by unregulated financial institutions which led to recession through no fault of their own, (and many of the financial elite who now appear to be reinforcing recent assessments fail to acknowledge their past failures and the dire consequences that arose from a total disregard for essential financial regulation and control of an industry beset by self interest and unethical behaviour).
And then we have yet more failures , this time by the EU to control it's borders and recognise sufficiently early the knock on effects from UNCONTROLLED AND UNPLANNED migration on those same innocent citizens, who again through no fault of their own now suffer all the consequences from decisions from a political elite who all too frequently are spared such effects given their salaries, access to a remarkable array of EU benefits, etc, and made all the more incredulous by immunity to pay tax (head of IMF),
And so it goes on.
Is it any wonder that trust and faith in the political establishment and those with financial authority currently being called upon to provide financial assessments are now being challenged?
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It has been reported in the media, and I also do believe it from a personal view, that should the UK vote ends up to stay in, the rest of the EU might well give the UK hell with the many new, for the want of better wording, rules and regs.
Now all the inners must have an answer to this....So lets hear it please.
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Remain or as you put it bremain is the status quo. You know what it means. Stability.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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baz
so what new regs, rules etc could the rest of the EU threaten the UK with and surely the same "hell" would have to apply to all member states!!
A bit more scaremongeirng or playgorund gossip me thinks
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Hurrah for the people of Austria! They have just voted in a new President. Anti nationalist, supporter of inclusion, ecology, immigration and the EU.
He defeated the anti immigrant, nationalist, far right candidate. There is hope for the world after all.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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so what new regs, rules etc could the rest of the EU threaten the UK with and surely the same "hell" would have to apply to all member states!!
A bit more scaremongeirng or playgorund gossip me thinks
For sure not playground gossip.
And as for scaremongering then you stays would know about that one.
It was told by a well know sensible politician only days ago, granted in the media, but lets not go onto that one, we know the outcome of repeating that.
I happen to believe that should the vote be stay the EU could say to us got you by the B***s now, you couldn't even leave when you tried to.
Yes, the same should apply to one and all but everyone knows that when a rubbish EU directive comes out the UK is almost the only one to enforce it.
As I am a "outer" have no doubt I am one brick short of a load.
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Hurrah for the people of Austria! They have just voted in a new President. Anti nationalist, supporter of inclusion, ecology, immigration and the EU.
He defeated the anti immigrant, nationalist, far right candidate. There is hope for the world after all.
Hitler to some was a nice person as well....and he was Austrian.
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He won by a mere 0.6% of the vote.
49.7% of the people of Austria have sent a very strong message to the 'status quo'.
This message was last edited by blueeyes on 23/05/2016.
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I happen to believe that should the vote be stay the EU could say to us got you by the B***s now, you couldn't even leave when you tried to.
baz soudns a bit playroundy to me reminds me of "its my ball and you can't play with it"
as an example I don't see the UK doing this sort of thing to Scotland so very much doubt it would happen in EU - any govt could call another vote at any time (and waste more money etc.which I am sure Scotland will be doing if they vote differently to the English)
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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The Austrian election was political, this one is personal, the only similarity between the two being that it's goodnight Vienna for one of the contenders.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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If we remain in.........
How do the remain campaigners expect to regain control of their borders so long as the EU open door policy remains, and why so little discussion from the Govt how they intend to realistically achieve this without adequate "allowable" safeguards and monitoring processes in place?
How bad does the UK housing, NHS, education systems have to get before this is adequately addressed?
The Sunday Times had a concerning article this week that highlighted areas that are suffering the consequences and impact on the educational system, where it identified that schools are having to spend millions on support services, hiring bilingual staff, building extra classrooms to accommodate for the unplanned increase, and buy books in different languages . They highlighted that many pupils from aspirational immigrant families are out performing British working-class children (good that they are proving able you might think) but why aren't politicians identifying the need to assist the British working class children who are losing out in this process, where ever depleted resources are now being redirected in this endeavour? One school had hired an "inclusion manager" and foreign speaking classroom assistants to deal with a school where 70% of pupils come from Eastern Europe. For every child who has been in the country for less than three years the school gets an extra £1000 per pupil which brings in £375000 to pay for extra staff speaking different languages to support the children. More than a year ago Nicky Morgan the education secretary launched a review of the effects of migration on schools but the review has not reported yet "amid suspicions that it has been shelved until after the European Union referendum".
Likewise, why so little recognition from our Govt that Turkey threatened to retreat from its "assistance" with regard the passage of migrants, unless their EU acceptance was hastened?
These are all sensitive issues but should be addressed nevertheless, especially when the impact could lead to greater tensions within our "tolerant" society..
Pressure should be put on the In campaign Politicians to identify NOW, realistic ways forward together with financial commitments on how this can be achieved?
Likewise with the NHS and housing.
Are you In campaigners doing this, NOW?
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If you had any doubts about leaving the actions of Cameron today and the Boris piece in the Telegraph will finally make your mind up and Osbourne is talking complete Bull we are officially in recession now whats a year when we have to look ahead the next 20, 30 ,40 ,50 years
The EU is a basket case and the Austrian elections prove it, we should get out whilst we have the chance before its to late and it all implodes with us in it
OUT UK
Love Hugh xx
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Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK
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