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I never really understand why we use 'is it not' when a simple is it will do, funny old language is it not?
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Best wishes, Brian
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The majority of the Conservative Party has always been against the European project. They have never understood it or its aspirations. Solidarity among Europeans, fraternity and cooperation between governments, sharing their sovereignty for a greater good. Thatcher was attracted to the single market and could see the obvious benefits but wanted little other involvement.
The vast majority of support for the Conservative Party comes from middle England. People generally with limited first-hand experience of European culture or its politics. Britain is an Island race, insular and inward in outlook. I don’t make those statements as any criticism of Britain, it’s just the way things are and have always been. Europe was always just ‘somewhere over there’.
The media in Britain is very narrow and biased with very little real balance of argument or information on European life. Unless it’s to sell ideas and products such as travel.
So it is hardly surprising that the European project passes most British people by in the everyday lives. They can easily be persuaded that Europe is not politically relevant to them or to the politics of their nation. Successive British governments have failed to sell the idea of the European project to the public because it was traditionally always regarded as a thankless and difficult task.
I also accept historically the Europeans themselves have not made the task any easier. They have tended to try and isolate Britain in the past although Mrs Merkle has done a great deal to change that.
So now they are asked to choose if they want to continue with the relationship, apathy generally is abroad in Britain. The right of the Conservative Party sees their chance to rid the party of a running sore inflicted on them by Edward Health. Tories never forgive or forget.
The fact the British economy will be damaged for a decade does not worry them. The voters don’t really understand why that should be so. They are comfortable their houses are worth a small fortune and they are a generation who has never known real hardships. They don’t understand that their standard of living is a direct consequence of the countries EU membership. Britain enjoys a similar level of prosperity to most other long established European states. The EU works on so many levels for everyone. Think how Spain has benefited so much and will continue so to do in the future.
Take Britain out of the EU and the people will discover what they have taken for granted for so long has gone. I believe Britain cannot maintain its level of prosperity on its own and the markets generally also agree.
The tragic thing is it will be way too late for Britain when that day dawns.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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A rather patronising post Mickey. I suppose that only someone who left the UK decades ago can really know what's best for Britain.
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If anything this EU referendum appears to have educated many to some uncomfortable truths with regard to the EU system and the failure to reform and requirement to heed genuine concerns of not just the British, but also other citizens across Europe who have been so negatively affected by their failure to recognise the impact from their decision making and lack of planning, whether this be in the form of
mass unemployment,
lowering of wages,
large migration of citizens in desperate need of work from EU homelands (with all the knock on effects therein on both the homelands and stresses on recipient countries),
unaccountability of political elites,
misuse of monies/potential for corruption (without adequate monitoring systems in place),
inefficiences and imbalances leading to demise of industries/fisheries/infrastructures,
inability to plan for and adequately respond to growing migrant / humanitarian crises,
miscalculation/underestimating the effects of EU policies which have culminated in the rise of extreme far right opinions across Europe,
imbalances relating to Banks and large corporate lobbying and failure to ensure Banks behaviour is compliant with ethical standards
failure to adhere to growth/stability pacts (whereby the likes of Germany can amass surpluses during several years which fail to meet the EU criteria devised to stabilise economies, at the expense of other member states ),
failure to ensure member state’s adherence to the rule of law
failure to forward plan
etc etc. .
The original ideas and aspirations have sadly become rhetoric and the failure by the EU to reform or demonstrate willingness to reform or acknowledge the impact of such failures, taking into account the realities that citizens are having to contend with and witnessing the negative effects on their caring society that has taken years to develop, hardly inspires confidence. It’s not as black and white as you suggest Mickeyfinn.
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GB45
A rather patronising post Mickey. I suppose that only someone who left the UK decades ago can really know what's best for Britain.
Why do you feel it necessary to make personal attacks on posters who genuinely believe in what thay write? If you have nothing constructive to offer please just shut up.
EU court backs UK Government's right to restrict migrant benefits
'Unequal treatment' of migrants is justified on the basis of 'protecting a member state's finances', says ECJ
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-court-backs-uks-ability-to-restrict-child-benefits-for-migrants-a7081046.html
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 14/06/2016.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Micky
I have read the reply by GB45 over and over again and I cannot see a 'personal attack' in there.
Your tone is now that of someone suffering 'desperation',
I suppose the phrase "If you have nothing constructive to offer please just shut up" is more of a personal attack than anything I have seen in GB45's reply.
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I agree ads. Well put and a solid description of the way the EU experiment has become more about the governors than the people.
If we can produce a major reform without leaving, I am up for that. I love the countries of France, Germany, Holland, Spain, Italy and others too. These are countries I visit regularly and could settle in if life took me that way. I'm sure I would be accepted by them also but I would have to adapt to their ways, which is only right
The EU is not Europe, we are Europe and we (the people) develop friends and relationships with countries like we do in our personal lives. The EU is just an organisation in place to help us trade and live harmoniously but it doesn't seem to live up to its mandate
In terms of the immigration argument and free movement for example, If your circle of friends was all of a sudden increased by lots of other people you were not used to or ready for, and told to accept them by a governing body without any discussion you would say no thanks, not yet, let's get to know each other first
It's a simple way of thinking about it I know, but it does give some perspective to me.
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Best wishes, Brian
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The fact the British economy will be damaged for a decade does not worry them.
Why does speculation always become fact to you Micky? Don't real off doomsayers controlled by Osborne, paid by the EU, or of the class that benefits from international (read taxpayers) largesse giving reports (or opinions or just plainly reporting as asked to do) generated in a week. We can always return with the considered conclusions of people that have spent their lifetime studying economics.
The public have seen through 'project fear'. Cameron's broadside has failed and has edged into the farcical.
If you want to tell us we are going to have an economic problem you are going to have to find some rational reason in future.
It is plain to everyone that, with our massive trade imbalance with the EU, we are at far less economic risk leaving than we are staying.
Now we have overcome that hurdle we can concentrate on the return of our democracy, control of our borders and what to do with our contributions.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 14/06/2016.
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Thanks for the pointer to recent ruling by the ECJ Mickeyfinn, but does this mean that every time the unelected EU Commission try to enforce actions that impinge on the financial well-being of member states that they will have to resort to the ECJ to prevent such major "oversights" and bad decision making?
Doesn't this open up the flood gates for expensive legal challenges for all manner of "impacts" as a consequence of bad EU decision making, rather than leave member states with the right to manage their own affairs and their own citizens financial and social wellbeing within the realistic confines of their capabilities?
Briando55, I fear that this EU governance in reality is undemocratic and does not serve the best interests of citizens and has become too far removed from the original intent to act as a common marketplace in which as you rightly observe, "to trade and live harmoniously".
Whether by intent or not, this move towards a super federal state does not sit comfortably with many EU citizens ( not just the British), who are rightly proud of their differing cultures and social structures and feel threatened by unplanned and ill thought out decisions that undermine their values, their living standards and way of life. When the realities demonstrate a downward spiral effect, then surely it's time to be willing to re-evaluate?
This message was last edited by ads on 14/06/2016.
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Looking at the FTSE100, I can't help but think that the city's dirty tricks dept has been at work. This has all the hallmarks of engineered profit taking, they very noticably off load stocks at circa 10% under their all time high, because they fear a Brexit victory. The hell they do, what they actually expect is a Brexit failure, they will by then have very quietly bought back the stocks that they sold in the first place, this time at a bargain price, this won't be noticed as the pension/investment funds will have sold far more than them due to their fear of a stock collapse and have no intention of re-buying until the referendum dust settles.
This tells me that the city expects a 'stay' victory, I'd love to be a fly on the wall at both Nigel's and Boris's stockbroker's wall, Dave's would also be interesting. However what none of them know is what is going on in the thick heads of us mere mortals (superior forum members excluded), don't they realise that the 15% don't knows actually don't know? 
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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Yes I also wondered if there was "engineered profit taking" at play here. I would ask the question ,with the knowledge we now have of the previous financial abuses what measures have been put in place to adequately monitor such purposefully manipulative behaviour by those with hidden intent, and what penalties are in place to act as deterrents?
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Perhaps the nice people in Brussels can pass a law to help!!!!
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Best wishes, Brian
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Brussels just doesn't have the same ring to it as London, Wall St or Washington State does it? But of course the legal capital of Europe, namely The Hague, should be able to sort it.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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Sat through a referendum event at a local university. Brexit really better hope that 18 to 24 year olds don't get out enmasse and vote. This group of people have no doubt on where they want to be. Their enthusiasm is refreshing and infectious. The overwhelming view was that the problem with the EU and the U.K. Is that the the UK is a passive member of the EU and the current generation of decision makers in politics and business are myopic. Their view is that we should be leading the EU not looking out to sea.
Highly unlikely that our generation will take heed of the very people that the referendum will affect most. Mind you we always were the greedy self serving generation no point in changing now.
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Lets see.
Dealer unloads lots of stock known to be sensitive to Brexit, (possibly much more than he has).
Masked raider pops int ORB offices in the dark of night and swaps the list of telephone No's with one peppered with No's of Brexit supporters.
Poll result published. Price goes down.
Dealer repurchases to replace stock (and fulfil orders).
Masked Raider pops into ORB office ..........................................
etc
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Hey tteedd, it was my idea.  
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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Take these chains from my state and set me free.
You're too corrupt and despotic for me.
All my faith in you is gone, but the oppression lingers on.
Take these chains from my state and set me free.
Take these tears from my eyes and let me see,
just democracy like that, that used to be.
If you love your stars on blue, let me find freedom, too
Take these chains from my state and set me free.
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Perrypower.
Was there any discussion at this meeting about how we can possibly lead the EU at any point in the future?
I had a discussion with a young family member last weekend and he mentioned that he read a Lithuanian doctor had come over here to earn more fruit picking than she was paid in her own country as a doctor. He mentioned that all the lunchtime tattooed drinkers during the day outside weatherspoons were white British so we do need immigrants and they will come.
I thought about this for a minute and pointed out that we were paying benefit to a guy sitting outside weatherspoons who could perhaps be picking fruit and Lithuania may have lost a doctor who could be serving their community and saving lives.
That can't be right can it? Did anything like that get debated at all.
I have never been a greedy generation, my grandparents helped me, I help my son and daughter, and will help my grandchildren if I'm still around. Things havnt changed too much you know, it will get harder if British people think they can just be university graduates and someone else will be menials.
I hope it's also being discussed on campus.
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Best wishes, Brian
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Greedy self serving generation? Such generalisations!
Is that why so many are still supporting their youngsters in terms of living at home for far longer periods, supporting them through their studies and catering for increased educational fees, or supporting young families who have returned home unable to afford a home of their own, subjected to delayed retirement, having worked hard all their lives ( with little financial help from their own parents) and just at the period in their lives when they deserved to enjoy their retirements they find their lifetimes savings provision or pension annuities concerningly deflated due to a financial crisis not of their own making, quantative easing measures, whatever, ...witnessing their beloved NHS system that they contributed to all their working lives coming under immense financial pressure, subjected to prohibitively high cost of elderly care, seeing the fabric of society that they strived to achieve during their lifetimes including educational provision and housing for their extended families now impacted by a "system" out of their control, etc. Need I go on?
P.s.EU citizens, British included, deserve better than this from their " leaders" , their decision makers, those with financial power and influence, and it's time for our wonderful youth to recognise the realities and hopefully make them far more accountable.
This message was last edited by ads on 14/06/2016.
This message was last edited by ads on 14/06/2016.
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Definitely not greedy and selfserving.
Many of our generation are downsizing in order to give their children and grandchildren a place on the housing ladder at some risk to their own future.
I feel positively mean, having only loaned the money to my children (but immensely proud that I got it back).
This message was last edited by tteedd on 14/06/2016.
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