| The Comments |
ads.
It's not a perfect world. I agree with you in the sense that both sides in a divorce should start the negotiations with the best of intentions. However divorce is a brutal and bitter business. This one will be no different. In a divorce there are never any winners. It's a public admission of failure. Recrimination and blame is usually what happens and both participants always believe they hold the moral high ground. The financial settlement usually creates the worst of that and Brexit will be no different. The financial costs will be considerable but Britain will I believe be damaged the most in the long term.
What remains of interest to me is how Britain ever arrived at this position politically. It could have been handled better and had that happened I believe the country would have been given better terms to persuade the people to continue its membership of the EU. It didn't happen then and it won't happen in March next year and beyond if article 50 gets triggered. Political intransigence and stubborn horse trading has always been the hall mark of European Union negotiations.
However the benefits every country receives from its membership are substantial and far and away exceed the difficulties that membership creates for the political elite. What the EU has failed to do for too long is convince ordinary people that EU membership benefits them directly.
No one comes out of this smelling of roses. I concede that. The political skill now is for both sides to navigate a damage mitigation course and so far we have seen little incentive from anyone to try and achieve that.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 26/11/2016.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
2
Like
|
Micky.
I think some of the points you make are part of the reason we're in this situation though.
Because the EU have so many members and so much difficulty in making any decisions we now see how we can discuss our future more clearly outside of the union where before, we were unable to even make small progress to discuss our issues inside the union.
Leaving therefore, to my mind, is some progress in our future and the way we shape our trading arrangements and our borders are the area we have to make acceptable progress in, in the context of suiting our needs and to the needs of our population
Politics is about change, not about standing still and the E U is about standing still and governing everyone as the same.
Something had to give for free thinking people don't you agree?
This message was last edited by briando55 on 26/11/2016.
_______________________
Best wishes, Brian
7
Like
|
Mickeyfinn,
Why should a " political elite" , as you put it, in the EU remain in power when it is their intransigence that has failed ( and continues to do so) to recognise and respond to citizen's voices/ concerns across Europe, and failed to demonstrate a willingness to provide transient controls and flexibility when faced with unintended consequences born from all the factors discussed to date that led to Brexit? And now they continue to be obstructive to achieving mutually beneficial terms for the majority of citizens?
David Cameron stood down in this process to be replaced by a leader who is endeavouring to better respond to the electorate, to reflect the call for greater balance in our society whilst trying to resolve the administrative failures and staged benefit reforms alongside plans to address the debt, widen our trading opportunities, reinvest in infrastructure etc, ( not an easy juggling act! ), so why should Junker and Tusk not do likewise?
Why are EU citizens such as yourselves who appear to want reform, not calling for them to be similarly accountable for their major errors in judgement that has led to such alienation and disillusionment of the current EU system?
Angela Merkel's party appear to have recognised citizen's anger by requesting that Schultz step down from the European Parliament Presidency at the end of his term (end of year) and the Dutch PM summed it up perfectly when he observed
" the EU must not continue with a “business as usual” approach, as to do so would be “the worst possible response,” after the British referendum. He urged against further political integration and a federal Europe, “because that too would be a denial of the sentiment felt by many Europeans to whom the EU is – or has become – something remote and aloof.”
Isn't it time that EU citizens united, by demanding their own leaders via the European council of ministers call for EU leaders of their Parliament and Commission to better represent their concerns?
P.s. Briando. Just read your posting and completely agree with your observations.
This message was last edited by ads on 26/11/2016.
This message was last edited by ads on 26/11/2016.
5
Like
|
We should all be running scared. There are not going to be any winners. They loose our contribution and our economy contracts. It costs them £180 million per week (£350 million less all the things that we get back) and the projections are we loose £225 million per week up to 2018 and then £575 million per week to 2020 and then £1.25 billion per week forever unless we can do trade deals with EU and others.
Yes, Perrypower, of course we are a little scared because it's something no one has ever done before, it's taken a great country like ours to rattle the cage.
My figures of £350 million a week are what is spoken of and generally regarded as true, your figures are no more then guess work, quote all the experts figures all day long but the truth is no one knows what will happen unless it's tried.
The EU as it is does not work, they who run it have no intentions of making it work, if hundreds took a finger out of the pie and took notice then maybe, but truth is that wont ever happen, it's a gravy train, a power kick, no more.
Why can't we do trade deals with other countries? Who's saying because you came out of the EU we wont talk to you anymore, pure business sense tells you that if you have the goods, at the right price, deliver on time, you will sell them and plenty will buy them, supply and demand thats all.
5
Like
|
Something had to give for free thinking people don't you agree?
Yes Brian I accept that to a point. However throwing the baby out with the bath water and leaving the union entirely is rather a drastic way to bring about changes. I would have rather seen change forced through from within. Inside the EU the UK was a force for reform and did actually do some good. Qualified majority voting was one success. Thatcher got a budget rebate.
The EU must reform further I am a supporter of that. I believe Brexit may now concentrate minds to achieve that especially with new leadership in Europe next year. However for the UK going it alone in a globalised economy will be an uphill struggle. Independence is a two edged sword as history has shown.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
2
Like
|
The UK and many others have tried for years to change the EU from within with very little success. The migrant crisis is making a lot of countries stretched beyond belief, what does the EU do? Demand that each country should have a quota. Clearly they don't listen and still aren't listening. Their answer to anyone challenging their ways is to punish them as a warning to others. Stay in line or else. I would think that the majority of people within the EU do not want a federal state or more powers given away, at the end of the day the country of your birth is the one that you care about the most. Is the EU listening or does it care? No...
5
Like
|
Here we go again, "The country of your birth". What a load of nonsense. Try to show a little respect for people who are British even if not born here. They may have struggled very hard and worked harder than the 'born heres" to get British Citizenship and they are just as entitled as any other Brit to voice their views.
The migrant crisis has nothing to do with the EU if you are referring to the 50% of the people who come to the UK from outside the EU. The quota refers to refugees, not EU Citizens. There is a big difference and like it or not they will keep coming except that after Brexit we will not be able to return them to the first EU Country they entered. I would expect more of then (in the tens of thousands) to head for Britain rather than other EU countries.
How can anyone know what the majority of people in the EU think.
Glas half full? Glass half empty? Well it was a glass full a year agox lets hope Brexit does not leave us with nothing but an empty glass a year from now.
2
Like
|
Micky
For chris sake, that was the whole point of Brexit.
Thecway the political structure works in the EU parliament meant that these days the UK voice counts for little as DC found out.
There are too many parties representing an alternate view and as will all democracies will not allow those with a voice for positive change be heard.
If you can't influence a democracy from within, the eventually you have to make the decision to remain or not.Simples.
You all keep agreeing that the EU must change but you don't present a plan of how to do it.
Is that not unlike your argument about TM not having a plan, at least they are working on one, realising thecEU will be intransigent.
4
Like
|
Traders at one of the UK's largest wholesale markets say prices for imports from the EU are up by as much as 40% owing to the drop in the value of the pound.
Tony Howard is a salesman for Barton and Redman Ltd, a large independent fruit and vegetable wholesaler at the market. He says tomatoes from the Netherlands have gone up sharply. "Before Brexit the average price of a box of tomatoes was around £4 and now it is around £6," he says. There were times before the UK voted to leave the EU when he could buy tomatoes from the Netherlands for £2, he says.
2
Like
|
Why do some people on here pretend that they know everything and others know nothing?
People will still support the country of their birth even if they don't live there anymore, that isn't nonsense. Unlike others I have stated what I think, not what I know.
The migrant crisis has everything to do with the EU. Angela Merkel who is the most powerful of the elected representativesin the EU invited them all to go to Germany. Unfortunately many of them realised that with freedom of movement eventually in time they could go wherever they wished.
2
Like
|
So people who were born abroad to British Parents are less likely to support Britian. All those children of foreign diplomats, our soldiers, aid workers and the list goes on and on are a threat to the UK. Outrageous!
2
Like
|
For chris sake, that was the whole point of Brexit.
No need to shout Hugh. The reasons you give for Brexit may well have applied to some more politically aware voters. However the principal reason Brexit obtained a majority among the wider population was fear of immigration stoked up by Farage and Co.
Trump managed to do the same. Blue collar workers that normally would not vote at all were energised by a connection these people made to their own prejudice. We see a little of that in some of these threads.
Of course the democrat in me welcomes political involvement from every source. The tragedy is the damage ill-informed prejudice can do in the long term. In both these cases that damage will have an impact on everyone’s lives in the coming years. Then what usually happens is disillusionment sets into this marginal vote. It fades away and the political status quo is restored.
Unfortunately and the tragedy for Britain is Brexit is forever. Trump just four years.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
4
Like
|
Please point out to me where I state that people who aren't born in the UK are less likely to support Britain? I said "People will still support the country of their birth even if they don't live there anymore", nothing wrong with that. Also where is the part where I have said anything about "anyone being a threat to the UK"?
2
Like
|
Jarvi, you asked..."Please point out to me where I state that people who aren't born in the UK are less likely to support Britain?"
Jarvi, you said "...at the end of the day the country of your birth is the one that you care about the most."
Jarvi, you asked..."where is the part where I have said anything about "anyone being a threat to the UK"?"
Jarvi, you said ... "Its plainly obvious that the remoaners would love the country to go down the pan just so that they could be proved right. Some people on here will not accept defeat in a gracious manner and are determined to try to wreck Brexit. I say to them grow a pair, accept the result and get behind the country of your birth..."
2
Like
|
Micky, please keep to your sensible self. You are beginning to sound like another poster.
The question on the ballet paper was quite clear, all voters answered it as they thought fit. Please do not give them motives that you cannot substantiate. I may suspect that many remainers voted in because they are part of the political gravy train but I am not going to accuse them of being corrupt. I have to accept that they voted in what they thought was the best interests of their country.
You may not be aware that malcontents have attacked Mr Farage's family due to comments that people have made about him.
We should all strive to keep the rhetoric fair and reasonable.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 26/11/2016.
2
Like
|
Is this attck on Nigel Farage's family a new thing or are you talking about the one in May 2015?
1
Like
|
Before this gets out of hand again, we would like to remind people to keep the conversation civil and polite. Please avoid potentially offensive comments. Thank you
_______________________
EOS Moderators
> See our Forum Rules | Privacy Policy | Terms of Use
4
Like
|
It's not an exact science why people vote in the way they do I accept that. However EU migration and the refugee crisis was exploited by the out camp. Remember the 'Breaking Point' posters. It was a blatant attempt to exploit the misfortune of refugees from Syria for political reasons.
I would never condone attacks on politician’s families or even on themselves, violence never solves anything However in my opinion Fararge represents the worst of Britain not the best.
In France we have our own version of Fararge in Marine Le Pen although he would deny that.
The difference is the French system makes it virtually impossible for her to be elected.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
2
Like
|
I'm not sure the French system makes it impossible. However it has again brought forward a right wing candidate that is not as extreme as Ms Le Pen, so the socialists can hold their nose and vote to make sure Ms Le Pen is not elected.
What is more relevant to this thread is how the new President (when elected) will affect our negociations.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 26/11/2016.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 26/11/2016.
0
Like
|
No need to shout Hugh. The reasons you give for Brexit may well have applied to some more politically aware voters. However the principal reason Brexit obtained a majority among the wider population was fear of immigration stoked up by Farage and Co.
Micky CAPS IS SHOUTING.
once again you appear to be suggesting that a large number of voters were not politically aware.
That may not be racist but how insulting is it to the Great British public to suggest they were influenced by lies and spin.
As has been repeated on here many times, spin was utilised by both sides, it always is in politics or marketing.
The major institutions, big business, the IMF, the Bank of England all offered us plenty of spin which the public at last ignored because it is about them NOT big business who of course may lose out.
Cant remember who but someone commented on cost of tomatoes going up 40%, that is nonsense based on currency alone, perhaps, could it be seasonal, tomatoes in November.
Thats why Brexit will allow us to grow more in giant greenhouses like Thanet Earth, go check it out.
1
Like
|