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BIG AL
Interesting Result Hard or Soft Brexit?considering all the EXPATS on EOS
- 88.66%
- 8.25%
- 3.09%
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This message was last edited by hughjardon on 28/10/2016.
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Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK
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does not say how many votes
Adding one vote increased 1.5% so must be very low so not really a good indicator
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Rob_j1
You ask about freedom of movement.
I think that this requires flexibility to be reviewed and controlled whenever member states become significantly compromised and in that process causes major citizen concern, sufficient to pose a threat to its social stability and cohesion. Such things a major shift from tolerance to intolerance giving rise to political extremes.
At present the EU are not demonstrating any willingness to review this requirement.
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BigAl2015
Agreed that I acknowledged your snowball point. However, it was made without any statistical evidence to back it up, and so remains not much more than an anecdote. In short, where I come to a discussion with stats, and get nothing but anecdotes in return, what is the point?
And your comments that I've simply lifted stats from the internet... seriously?
I'd like to ask you now to respond to the many points I made (based on stats, that were "lifted"), but on the exact same basis, applying your own logic, presumably for you to even respond using stats "lifted" from the internet, that would somehow make the discussion invalid. Unless of course you happened to be a research scientist working within the ONS, and were publishing your own original works solely...
As for the racist comment, what can I say? You get hit with stats, and you refuse to acknowledge them, responding with anecdotal points at best. Instead, you focus on the oft-repeated lies surrounding immigration. It surely cant have escaped your attention that even the big idea that Mrs May and her cohorts told us about, ie that we would get an Australian style point system, has disappeared in a cloud of smoke.
But thats ok. With near record low unemployment, and record numbers IN employment, why dont we all just continue to bash migrants as the anti-christ? Seems the flavour of the day. (hopefully the stupidity behind it all answers your question).
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I thought the points system was something to consider as an option rather than a definite commitment and having considered it in more detail the PM has discounted it?
Difference of interpretation?
Mind you I would be interested to know why it was discounted.....yet more research reqd, on my part, sigh. ;)
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I disagree there is a very strong chance that Scotland will leave the UK
Not immediately if the polls are anything to go by. Scotland would be in a big financial hole, but long term, if they keep having these minority referendums it will be a ratchet, people will eventually vote yes. Since they have voted no twice then it would be fair that they should at least have to vote yes three times over a similar period of time to cancel out the result.
I get fed up with the BBC saying '2nd Scottish referendum'. There have been two in my life-time so it would be the third. Their leader said that the last one was "a once in a lifetime vote".
I'm British and proud to say so. I have English, Scottish and probably Welsh ancestors. I resent 5% of the electorate being given the chance to break up the union when I have no say whatsoever. It is simply not democratic.
The constituency boundaries are being revised. I hope they end up equal in size throughout the UK. There is no democratic reason why Scotland is over-represented, especially when they have a devolved assembly. Once the boundaries are sorted out the West Lothian question shold be sorted out. Again if Scotland has it's own assembly then there should be fiscal nutrality between Scotland and the rest of the UK. Indeed Scotland should pay the etire cost of its extra layer of beaurocracy.
When I was in the armed forces we were all proud to be British. We all live on the one island and the people of Southern Scotland are no different from the people of Northern England.
There should be devolved government throughout the UK or non at all. But devolved government is a waste of money apart from being devisive. However we would then all be wasting some. Let's have a UK wide referendum on this!
This message was last edited by tteedd on 28/10/2016.
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Tteedd
Nice post but
I am proud to be European and I don't like a small percentage of its citizens breaking up the union
No difference really to you views on Scotland
We all have multiple ancestors from various nations how far do you want to go back roman viking etc
Devolution is wrong but it will happen now the ball has started rollimg and I can even see NI uniting with eire might be wrong but just my view
I get fed up with the arrogance of the media and many others of how great the UK is. The UK and it's people are no more special than anyone else
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Sorry Tadd, but there is a massive difference.
Scotland is part of the same Island. We have a long history together, over four hundred years under the same head of state and 300 years under the same progressively more democratic government. We share the same island, history outlook, sense of fairness and distrust of authority. Many people in the SE of england have Scottish ancestry because Scots have always sought advancement in our (British) capital.
During this time we, the British, have been called in many times to sort out the problems of the continent whilst remaining outward looking. We have never tried to dominate the continent as France and Germany have done.
The EU is non democratic, beaurocratic, corrupt and not run in our interest or sense of fairness. We have never been at ease as a member. Previous generations of politicians have tried to convince us that we could reform the EU but time has proven this impossible.
I suspect you are right about Ireland. If British govenments during the time Ireland was in the Union had been more attentive to Irish affairs, then, despite the religious divide and stoking of dis-affection by the Roman Church they may have remained in the Union. But that is now ancient history. If the number of members of the Church of Rome continues to increase in N Ireland or even if people on both sides of the border become less religious with time then I like you can see the eventual result of a United Ireland. I would not mourn the loss as long as the transition is peacefull. But I would always give them the right to re-join. Although this is not a realistic situation our laws still give Irish citizens rights not accorded to others.
I do not see our history in the same light as you. From my viewpoint the media is always belittling our past when we actually have a past to be proud of.
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Tteedd
Again I disagree the history of the British as said before is littered with violence in many forms as sais before again how far do you want to go back and not something to be proud of
Ireland is an island and NI is part of that is it not so let NI join eire what about independence for channel Islands or shetlands Falklands etc
France Germany spain etc are also part of a land mass
The EU is made up of elected members and leaders proposed by elected govt of member states etc no difference to the H of Lords etc
The democracy of the uk really! many would disagree proportional representation etc ask UKIP
Neither system is perfect
Other EU states don't have a sense of fairness get real
I have friends of different nationalities and most have similar views and the same needs
My children are all born EU citizens and that is bring taken away from them which is wrong
Just as many people on SE England have ancestors from all over the UK and the world
I could go on and on
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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I could go on and on
So you could. But that does not make anything you say correct.
But two points (do not feel like disecting all of it. Even those points mis-representing what I was saying).
1. I think I was agreeing with you on NI.
2. We vote for representitives. In a true democracy the citizens would make the decisions. The representatives are one step away from the electorate, one step away from true democracy. We do not (or should not) vote for parties when this means voting for someone who is unfit to represent us. Proportional represtentation breaks the connection between the electorate and those governing and is infinitely less democratic. Appointment by parties is a long way from democracy and would remove our ability (not often enough exercised) to remove those unfit to represent us.
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Rob_j1
You ask about freedom of movement.
I think that this requires flexibility to be reviewed and controlled whenever member states become significantly compromised and in that process causes major citizen concern, sufficient to pose a threat to its social stability and cohesion. Such things a major shift from tolerance to intolerance giving rise to political extremes.
At present the EU are not demonstrating any willingness to review this requirement.
This is funny, due to timing. Did you see Tony Blairs comments? Essentially, both sides made claims, but as things solidify, people should be given the option to review and reassess. Sound familiar? Brexit and whether its hard or soft.
But, overall, my point was that the EU is about the 4 freedoms. If its citizens wish to move around, they are free to do so. Any attempt to stop them, is an act against freedom, against the individuals right to self determination, and the right to chase your dreams to improve your life.
Remember, this is a two way street. Just as people come here to the UK, we are free to go there, as indeed have many Brits, retiring to places like Spain...
You seem to be interpreting this in a strange way. Do you not like freedom? Or do you only like freedom when you have it and others do not?
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Tteedd
Yes we agree on NI
We also vote for our MEP's in the same who then endorse the govt commissioners
Not a big difference to the Lords etc
I agree too many people vote for the PM or party with our even knowing who their MP or MEP is
As I said neither system is perfect but no real difference
Together we are better
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Was it really June 23 2016 that we decided to leave the EU?
If the EU was to become a single state then it needed a single currency.
If the UK was to become a full member of the single state then it needed to adopt the EU currency or forever remain outside the centre.
On the 16 September 1992 the UK crashed out of the exchange rate mechanism. This indicated two things:
The UK would not be adopting the European currency in the short term.
Scepticism by France, Germany and the EU bank of the UK's position had led to the the pound being unsupported.
On around the 15 June 2003 the Labour government decided that we had not met the '5 points' it deemed necessary to join the Euro. Despite it being unlikely that we would ever get closer.
On reflection I think that these two dates are as least as significant as June 23 2016. If no UK government could ever see it's way to abandon the £, then leaving or becoming just an associate was the logical conclusion.
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Rob_j1
IMHO Freedom of movement to live and work in a member state is a privilege but with such privileges comes responsibility to adhere and respect the laws and rules of that member state, within the rule of law etc. and in this scenario that includes the requirement to respect the democratic decision of the British people.
As you know the UK citizens were provided by Parliament with the democratic right to a referendum to choose whether they wished to remain in the European Union and the majority voted to leave, Following that vote Parliament accepted that this decision should be respected.
My observations with regard to the EU bureaucrats not recognising or demonstrating a willingness to provide flexibility (controls) with regard to the rules governing the freedom of movement across member states, was as I'm sure you are aware, in relation to the ability to adequately respond to the impact of swift unplanned migration of people on such a scale as to undermine the cohesion of that member state. Any member state should be protected from such threats, ....that is not to say that I don't respect people's freedoms!
What has happened in the UK is that uncontrolled swift and unplanned migration together with other factors already discussed on this thread and the impact this had on the UK, left the majority of voters so disillusioned and disaffected with the European Union it led to their decision to leave the EU.
What I find incredulous is that the EU bureaucrats didn't comprehend the realities in the lead up to the referendum vote and respond with any form of transient controls to mitigate the pressures or provide any reassurance to demonstrate they had any conception of people's concerns. All people saw was intransigence.
Best we leave it there.
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I see Tony Blair is recommending that we should have another vote on the Brexit ,just to make sure we have made the right decision .( yes sure we should and if the labour party ever get in again ,god help us all and. I am sure they will give us another Democratic vote just in case we have made the wrong choice voting them in) .
This message was last edited by windtalker on 29/10/2016.
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Tteed. Is there an associate member status of the EU?
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Best wishes, Brian
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BigAl,
A huge surplus does not mean ALL, I wish posters would not miss quote in order to look smarter than they actually are. For your information many of the benefits claimants have never worked, and if it were up to them, will never work, what the hell has the BHS staff got to do with my post?
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IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.
THANK YOU.
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Is there an associate member status of the EU?
I suppose you could say this of Iceland, Norway and Switzerland now. But I was thinking more of the future, for a country that did not integrate as the union moved towards a single state.
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We are the 5th largest economy in the world, out of around 200 countries, we have near record unemployment (4.9%), and we do actually have a record number IN employment, so clearly we are doing just fine economically.
So I'm going to ask you one simple question.
Q: Do you respect freedom of movement, both into the UK, and into the EU, yes or no?
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