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hugh_man
..........I believe the issues were very important to a large number of voters, because for a change............
fair comment but what I am not clear on and can't see how teh 17m coudl be clear on what changes were they voting for
the isseus - yes there were issues, as headlines by the leave campaignn and the media which were very misleading, innaccurate and made up
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Political change may seem appealing to a large section of electorates everywhere. However it rarely actually means anything tangible and almost never improves ordinary people’s lives. It can however make them a whole lot worse.
The creation of the single European market was one of those rare exceptions which has created unrivalled prosperity since it began. It has benefited most ordinary people. Likewise free movement of people has benefited some and I accept left others behind. Their are always winners and losers.
Capitalism is a competitive world not just in business markets but labour markets too.
You who are so convinced Brexit is right for Britain are ignoring the unparalleled benefits membership of the EU has brought to Britain. You have no answers and the government has no apparent policy to compensate for the black hole Brexit is likely to make in the economic life of the nation.
The only tangible issue that most voters believed in was preventing migration from Europe. They are almost certain to get their wish. However everything else the government believes it can negotiate is unlikely to be agreed by the EU because of that one issue.
So in short Brexit does mean some tangible change but I believe it will be a form of pyrrhic victory for the leavers and Britain.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 11/12/2016.
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Time is the fire in which we burn.
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The out electorate knew precisely what they were voting for and that was immigration border controls. Conceivably they did not comprehend that the free movement of workers (or is that free movement of everyone now) is a fundamental principal of the EU. If the UK cannot concur a covenant on free movement with the EU the UK will be secluded from the EU. If the UK agrees to free movement a great proportion of the rationale of the referendum will have been a misuse of time.
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NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER: A mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others.
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Free movement with no right to to stay ,unless you can prove that you are in employment and will not be a burden on any EU state (just like the system the Spanish have.) The question you have got to ask your self is why can other EU countries in force this but the UK cannot.if you have any ideas on helping the UK to avoid Bankruptcy then please send them to Mrs T May, care of 10 Downing st London.
This message was last edited by windtalker on 11/12/2016.
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The UK attracts more immigrants because it is perceived as ‘’BENIFITS PARADISE’’. The UK generally enforces nothing because it cannot be bothered. Just like NHS tourism, a total free for all. Strange why the UK taxpayer accepts all this.
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NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER: A mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others.
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The Majority of the UK tax payer's do not accept NHS tourism or DSS benefits Paradise that is why we voted to leave that EU ,if the Mafia that control the EU would have allowed the UK to make this simple change then the Majority would have voted to stay in the EU ,emigration is good for the UK but it has got to be the right kind (ie) no burden on the state.
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You mean like EU regulation 492/2011 which states:
EU law provides for safeguards as regards access to social assistance for economically inactive mobile EU citizens, to protect host Member States from unreasonable financial burdens.
economically non-active persons (e.g. unemployed, retired, etc.) have the right to reside for longer than three months if they have for themselves and their family sufficient financial means so as not to become a burden on the host EU country’s social assistance system as well as health insurance.
Looks like the "Mafia " that controls the EU have made provisions. So explain why all the other EU countries apply it but UK doesn't? I can't see anything that says "in any other EU country except the UK" in that regulation.
It also states that those job seeking allowances are to be paid by the home country (not the host country) for the first 3 months if they have registered unemployed in their home country.
After 3 months they must prove they are actively seeking work and have a chance of gaining employment to be paid any job seekers allowances available but not earnings related benefits.
Back to blaming the EU for the UK system.
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You mean like EU regulation 492/2011 which states:
EU law provides for safeguards as regards access to social assistance for economically inactive mobile EU citizens, to protect host Member States from unreasonable financial burdens.
economically non-active persons (e.g. unemployed, retired, etc.) have the right to reside for longer than three months if they have for themselves and their family sufficient financial means so as not to become a burden on the host EU country’s social assistance system as well as health insurance.
Looks like the "Mafia " that controls the EU have made provisions. So explain why all the other EU countries apply it but UK doesn't? I can't see anything that says "in any other EU country except the UK" in that regulation.
It also states that those job seeking allowances are to be paid by the home country (not the host country) for the first 3 months if they have registered unemployed in their home country.
After 3 months they must prove they are actively seeking work and have a chance of gaining employment to be paid any job seekers allowances available but not earnings related benefits.
Back to blaming the EU for the UK system.
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For me it's the 'One Size Fits All' mentality of the EU that is most annoying, why they appear to be unable to team and ladle according to needs and requirements is totally beyond me. As for wasting money, all governments and public sector departments have a 'Use It Or Lose It' policy where funding is concerned, my local GP practice is far more likely to refer a patient to a private hospital when it's financial year is nearing it's end than when it's beginning.
The current EU set up would be immediately recognised by George Orwell, I have long been an advocate of less government, the more there is the more corruption there is, we've had 'Cash For Questions' and 'MP's Expenses', god only knows what goes on over the water.
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No idea why my post came out twice. Only pressed Reply once.
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''The Majority of the UK tax payer's do not accept NHS tourism or DSS benefits Paradise''
So why does the present and past goverments allow it?
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NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER: A mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others.
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My trains late blame the EU ,it's raining blame the EU, i have a parking ticket blame the EU etc etc i thinkyou get the message Mike CDA
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Tadd
We have all agreed there were lies, damned lies and statistics thrown at all of us by both both sides in the campaign.
Many of which, have not and will not necessarily come to fruition.
We ought to be used to that by now because that is exactly what the media and business does to us all the time, in an effort to buy their goods or vote for their side or support their arguments.
We all have to take some responsibility to pick the bones out of what we hear, read or are told, some we take with a pinch of salt and some sticks but we make up our minds to the best of our ability, no one expects anything else.
We cannot continue to expect someone else to set out ALL the answers to the meaning of life all the time and we can't always be looking fir someone to blame.
Micky
Prosperity in trade and peace was brought to us by the military strength of the Allies in the 1940s which eventually led to NATO, funded mainLy by the US and the many discussions which have brought about various WTO agreements to make it simpler for the world to trade together in fairness and a genuine wish to reduce poverty and to cater for a globalised market place.
WTO is in effect a single market but not quite FREE trade as limited tariffs are permitted.
It is being a member of the EU single market, rules and regulations which actually restricts some trade with other worldwide countries.
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bobaol
You may have a very good point re benefits systems?
We all know the NHS are, perhaps rightly concerned with health issues, rather than who is going to pay for it?
But purely as a question, is there not something in EU regulations that states a country can't treat an EU citizen any differently to its own citizens with regard to benefits?
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hugh_man
We have all agreed there were lies, damned lies and statistics thrown at all of us by both both sides in the campaign.
I agree to a point but all of these lies were towrads the guesswork and uncertainty of leaving. Not many lies about remaining as very little would have changed so not a lot to lie about.
The fact both sides lied (primarily the exiters) just goes to show what a mess the entire vote was and if people were suckered in by the lies then...............no wonder we are in a mes aand divisive and heading for an even bigger mess
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NHS TOURISM
''if the Mafia that control the EU would have allowed the UK to make this simple change''
How long has Nigeria been a member of the EU?
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hugh_man
is there not something in EU regulations that states a country can't treat an EU citizen any differently to its own citizens with regard to benefits
Yes, there is. Once the EU citizen has been granted resident status. As UK has no way of granting this, no register of EU citizens - no proof of income - health insurance - place to live and so on, the rules cannot be applied. The EU rules (the one I quoted) say countries can impose restrictions "if the citizen intends to remain for more than 3 months". One of the UK health officials openly stated that anyone from the EU will be treated as a "resident" on day 1 simply by giving the address of a relative or friend. No wonder the system is so abused. Amazing other countries (sometimes referred to as third world ones by some) manage to keep the register, make people prove they won't be a burden on the welfare system and also, as if by magic, have systems in place to actually recover the money for healthcare from their home countries.
My point is, the EU gets blamed for many things which they are not responsible for.
I will be glad when the UK does leave the UK. Although I think the decision was the wrong one, it was the decision made and the UK (government, civil service, judiciary or whomever) should abide by it.
It will also show up all the "we can't do this because of the EU regulations" fibs that get told. Give it a couple of years and they'll only have themselves to blame without the convenience of a EU scapegoat.
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Good point. Once the EU scapegoat disappears will the government continue to treat taxpayers as gullible fools,
like Asda selling Cliff Richard Christmas CDs?
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the unparalleled benefits membership of the EU has brought
You keep on about these benifits but never eloborate and are now calling them unparalleled benefits.
Perhaps the unparelled benefits are precisely the disadvantages that have led many to decide over the years that we are paying a lot in hard cash as well as lack of democracy to a club whose disadvantages outweigh it's benefits.
My trains late blame the EU ,it's raining blame the EU,
It has just been ruled by Bruxells that we cannot have HS2 platforms the same height as the carriage door ways to allow wheelchair access. Thus adding several minutes to stopping times at each station and a major disadvantage to disabled passengers. My trains are late blame the EU.
Not sure about the rain but there was some suggestion that EU green rules were what prevented dredging and subsequent flooding.
In the normal course of events we get a bonifide report of some EU ruling. Then about a year later they say it was not the case and all a misunderstanding. Meanwhile much of the EU just goes their own way and ignors the rulings. It is an anglo saxon trait to believe that rules are ment to be kept.
Soon we may be able to obey our own rules and leave them to ignor theirs.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 11/12/2016.
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BREXIT would not exist if it wasn’t for our own shortcomings. The way British governments have dealt with EU and non EU immigration (all welcome and benefits from day one) is an absolute disgrace. The same applies to NHS tourism (all welcome, treatment available here free, no questions) we must be the laughing stock of the world. All this could have been fully controlled by ourselves. I doubt any other country in the world (EU or non EU) has been as neglectful as the UK. It would seem the politicians just could not be bothered and squandered taxpayer’s money. It would also seem the taxpayers did not care either.
WHY
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NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER: A mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others.
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