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If it affects 'inners' and 'outers' alike then why go to all the bother of rushing a new bill through parliament to change the rules?
Do you believe that Mr Cameron would have wanted to change the rules at the last moment if he thought it would favour 'in' to leave things as they are?
I might have believed just that, except for the fact that Mr Cameron has used all the machinery of government for the 'in' case and spent our money to persuade us to stay in, even though strict limits were agreed before the campaign kicked off.
This action is unprecedented. He is desperate not to become the PM who took us out.
Public life in this country used to believe that it at least had to be seen to be squeaky clean. No longer. Politicians feel free to steal our money when claiming expenses.
Does it matter?
Mr Cameron has misused the machinery of government to push things in the direction he wants. He has also involved senior servicemen and others who used to keep quiet in furthering his campaign.
I give you that he has a long way to go to match him, but Mr Mugabe uses the states resourses for his own ends, the troops to ensure the opposition do not vote and if that does not work he beats up and shoots people.
Yes I am exagerating the case. But it is a matter of degree and I much prefer the clean image of the past.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 09/06/2016.
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In parliamentary voting close decisions generally trigger a re-count, now not being one for predictions I couldn't possibly think that a close out majority would cause a re-count, but an in majority wouldn't, that would be cheating wouldn't it? 
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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Apparently no recount has been allowed for. The Electoral Commission rules for the entire process are here if anyone is interested
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It's not too late to see the logic in the remain campaigns arguments. It will be however too late for Britain to change its mind when the true consequences of Brexit start to hit the nation hard. There will be more than a sense of loss, bitter regret is more likely.
The influential Conservative MP Dr Sarah Wollaston has revealed that she is defecting from the campaign for a leave vote in this month’s referendum and will be casting a vote for Britain to remain in the European Union.
Just over four months after announcing that her clear preference was for the UK’s withdrawal from the union, the MP said on Wednesday night that she no longer felt comfortable being part of the Vote Leave campaign and said its claim that a Brexit would unlock up to £350m a week for the NHS “simply isn’t true”.
“For someone like me who has long campaigned for open and honest data in public life I could not have set foot on a battle bus that has at the heart of its campaign a figure that I know to be untrue,” said Wollaston, who is a former GP. “If you’re in a position where you can’t hand out a Vote Leave leaflet, you can’t be campaigning for that organisation.”
In an interview with the BBC, Wollaston said that she had undergone a change of heart after her postal vote arrived and she started to think how she would feel on the morning of 24 June if the result of the referendum turned out to be a victory for the leave campaign. “I realised I would feel a sense of loss, that we had lost something, and I am now actually going to vote to remain,” she said.
Source The Guardian 9th June.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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It's not too late to see the logic in the remain campaigns arguments.
Logic?? For logic read fear tactics.
We are threated with WW3 and economic meltdown. Neither of which are remotely likely given our exit.
Given the economic performances of the EU as a whole (dismal) and the UK (comparable with the rest of the developed world). We have sunny uplands to look forward to if we leave.
The EU has never had the will or the ablity to stop any war. The (agressor, and prior to that main participant) in those 200 years of wars in Europe was split in half - the western half garrisoned by America, the UK and France until the 80's. When there was war in the balkans the EU just wrung it's hands. And democracies do not go to war with each other. Totalitarian states and religion cause war in the modern world.
Sarah Woolaston seems, as a doctor, understandably to be worrried about the NHS. If she were an economist or an accountant she would see that there is no problem in allocating some of the funds not paid to the EU to the Health Service.
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Micky says:
The influential Conservative MP Dr Sarah Wollaston has revealed that she is defecting from the campaign for a leave vote in this month’s referendum and will be casting a vote for Britain to remain in the European Union.
Was she an 'influential MP yesterday when she was voting 'out'?
If she is influential maybe you enlighten us to what position in the cabinet she holds?
I have not yet heard anyone say that a Brexit would unlock £350 million per week, what has been said is that we send £350 million to the EU every week, now this is the truth, although not completely honest as we get back rebates from this, but it is certainly no more dishonest than saying we are about to enter WW3 if we vote 'out'
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We do not send £350 million to the EU each week. The rebate is deducted first. The £350 million claim is false and that is why it has created such a huge outcry across the board.
Infact we don't write a cheque or do a bank transfer of any such on a weekly basis. But we do contribute to the EU; if you deduct all the hard elements (rebates, EU contibutions to our hard working farmers (which I presume we will still pay), science and medical research payments (which I presume we will still pay), infrastructure payments (which I presume we will still pay), grants (which I presume we will still pay), etc. plus aid to non-EU countries (which I presume we will still pay), and revenue from trade tariffs then it works out to £85,714,285.71 per week. The Trade tarriffs we avoid paying EU Countries when we import is £173,076,923.08 per week. Brexit lost the case on economics a long time ago.
The only card 'leave' has to play is the immigration issue which everyone agrees needs attention. If net migration is 330,000 per year and half of that is non-EU we still have 165,000 per year inward from outside the EU. If we leave the EU it will simply be the same number but it will be 330,000 people...some from Euope and some from other places. Don't forget we 'invite' most of the 165,000 EU people here as workers and will still need to do that.
Population is the engine of any economic and cultural growth. By "controlling it" all that is meant is we want to chose who can come and who cannot. That does not work with refugees. We have international legal requirements that we must comply with unless we want to be treated like North Korea. If there was capable, skilled, willing workers to fill all of the current job vacancies there would be no need to look outside the UK. But there isn't. Some don't want to work. Some don't have the skills. Some are just not capable.
It is time the UK stood up, stopped crying like a baby and took its place at the top table in the EU, otherwise we are going to be marginalised. Are we a nation of quitters? Or are we a nation that can lead. The referendum question should ahve been written that way. Do you vote to be a leading nation (Vote Remain) or do you vote to be a nation of quitters (vote leave).
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UK is the fastest groing economy in the EU, even with 'our hands tied behind our backs' by the EU. Just think what we could do if we were 'unleashed?
So YES we could be 'Quitters' and give control to the EU, or YES we could 'lead' by taking OUR DESTINY IN OUR OWN HANDS.
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Ireland (EIRE) is the fastest growing economy in the EU. I don't see them quitting.
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There was a piece on last night's tv, interviewing UK expats living on the costas. It was a similar story of doom and gloom as this forum's inners until a UK businessman expat came on, he clarified reciprical health care and residency issues, he's voting out. Why is it that we never hear anything from UK expats living in say, France or Italy, could it be that they attract a different type of Brit? I say this because they don't appear to have a desire to re-create the UK in the sun, or perhaps more to the point, their adopted countries don't allow them to.
I can't put myself in the shoes of UK expats living in Spain, exchange rates just aren't as important to me as they are to them, and there are a lot more of me's than them's. I've never bought a property that has halved in value and been robbed by bent lawyers and agents, but I am sure that the UK remaining in the EU will not help them or other prospective victims. I shall cast my vote as a UK national residing in the UK, my concerns are far different to those of UK expats residing in Spain.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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Fear is a human emotion driven by the anticipation of some terrible event, real or imagined. Knowledge of the facts of that event induces a relative calm and a determination to prevent it. That is why the MP changed camps and that’s why many others are following.
It is not fantasy that the UK economy will be trashed by Brexit. You have the historical advantage of precedent. Knowing what the economy was like before the UK joined. Why else did they try so hard to join? It was basically a basket case. Controls on the money supply, post war austerity that lasted almost thirty years. Union controlled factories that turned out shoddy goods nobody wanted to buy. Remember British Leyland, inefficient nationalised industries and bail outs from the IMF.
My own mother was arrested at Dover for taking out of the country more than £40 when she went on holiday. Do you seriously want to return to those days?
Brexiteers seem to think it’s acceptable to take these enormous risks with the British economy and peoples lively hoods. Why? To stop EU immigrants coming to Britain to work. To undo regulation which the UK would have to pass separately in order to trade with the world. To return to democracy which actually the last time I looked British democracy was doing very nicely thank you and few people believed it was not. Be in charge of our own affairs. Britain is completely in charge of its country has more opt outs than I can shake a stick at and retains its sovereignty where it belongs in the House of Commons.
Brexiteers need to take a reality check. Their supporters are mostly 50 something’s inhabiting a land nobody else either lives in or recognizes. They seem to me mostly to live in a form of Home Counties golf club world that prevents women taking part. A comfortable world with the chaps enjoying a pint in the nineteenth hole, moaning about immigrants and how the country is going to the dogs. Bring back hanging as well and let’s get rid of all these jonny foreigners for good.
I’ve been there you see, seen it with my own eyes. Time for a wakeup call folks and look into the white eyes of the abyss. It’s now or never. A Britain part of European prosperity, a decent future and prospects for the young or going it alone in the unknown with no prospect whatever of success. A no brainer really.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 09/06/2016.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Their supporters are mostly 50 something’s inhabiting a land nobody else either lives in or recognizes. They seem to me mostly to live in a form of Home Counties golf club world that prevents women taking part. A comfortable world with the chaps enjoying a pint in the nineteenth hole, moaning about immigrants and how the country is going to the dogs. Bring back hanging as well and let’s get rid of all these jonny foreigners for good.
Micky it is probably more likely 65's plus or even 70's plus as for me many have a very narrow view of the world and I include members of my family and friends in this
they live in the past and actually believe the UK is better than anywhere eles and that Brits are better than anyone else at everything and that Brits can do no wrong and that the RoW should do everything as the Brits do and adopt all things British.
Stiff upper lip and all that bo**ocks
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Micky
I'm beginning to side with the 'crock' comment.
It's you that needs the reality check mate.
The economy will not be tied to the ailing EU economy after Brexit.
We were a basket case in 79, seven years after joining the EEC.
Command economy Wilson. Just like command economy EU. Why should law breakers not be arrested (even when the law was ridiculous - just like many EU laws).
Opt outs, if they are ever ratified, are worth about the same as the 'crock'.
Yes return democratic control to the house of commons.
Youngsters are easily swayed, as I was when young, there is something to be said for knowledge and experience.
Greece faces the abyss, we are some way away, but it lies at the heart of the EU.
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Like Heph I am a UK National who lives just around the corner from him, but I will be voting lead in EU not quit EU.
I have children that are just a couple of years into full-time work. They are voting Remain because the EC has given them so much more scope for opportunity both within the companies they work for but also for opportunities abroad. Their choice not mine, they are grown-up.
I have children in University who are voting to remain. They simply think people who want to vote leave are either racist or don't understand economics.
I have a child in high school. He can't vote. His question is why is my generation so eager to make the UK the UnUnited Kingdom (Scottish Independance) or the LessThanGreat Britian (quit the EU)? I've explained to him that as we get older we become less adventurous, more easily frightened and really can't condon people who drink tea without milk in it. He says it is because we don't want to leave anything on the table for the next generation, like the environment, peace, equality, cooperation and hope. To him being part of a global village is the way it is. Like all of his generation he is not afraid of failure or benched by broken dreams.
There is something to be said for knowledge and experience, unfortunately it is not all good.
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The economy will not be tied to the ailing EU economy after Brexit.
The UK is free to trade with the rest of the world now and is not 'tied' to the Eurozone economically or politically. It has opt-outs.
We were a basket case in 79, seven years after joining the EEC.
Britain joined the European Economic Community on 1 January 1973, along with Denmark and Ireland.
Command economy Wilson. Just like command economy EU. Why should law breakers not be arrested (even when the law was ridiculous - just like many EU laws).
Wilson did not adopt a command economy. You are confusing Britain with the Soviet Union.
Opt outs, if they are ever ratified, are worth about the same as the 'crock'.
The opt-outs are legal and agreements made will be kept. Ratification is just a formal process.
Yes return democratic control to the house of commons.
The House of Commons is already democratic and is sovereign. MP's can vote to leave the EU any time they wish without a referendum. The very proces of calling the referendum is a democraticprocess by the government free of any control from Brussels.
Youngsters are easily swayed, as I was when young, there is something to be said for knowledge and experience.
The young need a future they need hope they can improve their lives more than previous generations. They are more influenced by the facts than years of myth and prejudice.
Greece faces the abyss, we are some way away, but it lies at the heart of the EU.
The Greek problem is being slowly dealt with but since the UK will not be asked to contribute as a none member of the EZ is matters not to the country.Its a none issue.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Perry
Like Heph I am a UK National who lives just around the corner from him, but I will be voting lead in EU not quit EU.
This surely just goes to prove there are 2 points of view and there is no proof either way of who is right and who is wron.
I have children that are just a couple of years into full-time work. They are voting Remain because the EC has given them so much more scope for opportunity both within the companies they work for but also for opportunities abroad. Their choice not mine, they are grown-up.
I have children in University who are voting to remain. They simply think people who want to vote leave are either racist or don't understand economics.
I suppose as a good father (which I am sure you are) you told them they are wrong, just because other people have another view does not make them racist or that they don't understand economics, because there is no prrof either way at the moment.
I have a child in high school. He can't vote. His question is why is my generation so eager to make the UK the UnUnited Kingdom (Scottish Independance)
There is a large part of Scotland that want their independence NOW and has nothing to do with leaving the EU, Scotland had it's own referendum recently and the majority chose to stay. Unfortunately there is a certain element that could not accept their countries own democratic decision and are now climbing on the back of this debate to try and open their debate again. It was suppsoed to be a 'once in a lifetime decision'. I am fairly confident that if the vote is to leave the EU there will be a certain UK element that will be looking for another way to reverse that decision.
or the LessThanGreat Britian (quit the EU)?
The only thing that will make us Less Than Great Britain is people talking our country down, I believe that DC has made this mistake and will come to regret it.
I've explained to him that as we get older we become less adventurous,
Surely 'more adventurous' is to try change rather than staying the same?
more easily frightened and really can't condon people who drink tea without milk in it. He says it is because we don't want to leave anything on the table for the next generation, like the environment, peace, equality, cooperation and hope.
I am sure the 'outers' wish to lay that table better than it's ever been laid before.
To him being part of a global village is the way it is. Like all of his generation he is not afraid of failure or benched by broken dreams.
I think you will find that this is the 'outers' point, they want us to become part of the 'global village' rather than the EU village', I use the term EU because not every country in europe is part of the EU.
There is something to be said for knowledge and experience, unfortunately it is not all good.
And there is NOTHING to be said for 'lack of knowledge and experience'.
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Im voting out because of immigration I have arrived back in UK permanently and its over run with people who have nothing to do all day mainly young people who cant speak english WALKING UP AND DOWN THE STREETS and who are not Anglo Saxon by origin why dosent Spain have the same types walkking up and down I wonder over 6000 a week are entering via the free movement categorys the country cannot cope with such an influx
The vibe that these people give off is threatining and we feel scared
Can anyone shed light on this as its bugging me only been here a month after living manyyears in Spain
Love Hugh xxx
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Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK
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Birmingham, like Manchester and East London are real melting pot cities Hugh. Don't worry, you will get used to it. By the way, voting out is not going to remove any of those people. Nor is it going to stop refugees coming in or family members joining existing families in the UK from non eu countries.
How long were you gone?
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Did you worry about being surrounded by thousands of Spanish people? Presumably when you lived in Spain anglo-saxons were also outnumbered.
True anglo-saxons are almost extinct anyway. Racial origins don't matter, social integration however does. If you dislike your neighbours maybe you are living in the wrong place.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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The UK doesn't have that much of an immigration problem if you take the following into account. Immigrants are now taking over the cheap Victorian terraced house areas where young Brits used to buy as starter homes. What is needed is a massive affordable housing building programme, there is plenty of wasteland due to the industrial meltdown, all that is required is a will to start building again, this would automatically regenerate the industries associated with house building. The stock market would surge along with a huge reduction in unemployment, the tax man would be taking whilst the benefits office would be giving out less, folk in work buy stuff. everyone, would be a winner.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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