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So why are the British seeming so miserable and dissatisfied with their lot?
Are they? most seem perfectly happy to me.
There is a problem with housing and debt among the young.
The problem with housing is caused by unrestricted immigration, caused partly by the EU, forcing prices up and the debt problem that was caused by Mr Blair and Brown making the next generation pay for thier education so that they could blow the proceeds.
There is a bit of a problem with some pensions (again caused by Mr Brown raiding them) but even then the affected pensioners seem a happy lot despite having been robbed.
No doubt they would be happier able to chose their own future, but I see very few miserable dissatisfied people, even among those with just cause.
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Joe public should have been protected though.
I did not hear of anyone losing their money during the RBS collapse - so Joe Public was protected
Not really sure how much Joe Public was proeteced in the USA with the Lehman collapse - but that is the USA and thee ways are often very odd. The EU can learn a lot of how not to look after your own from the USA
This message was last edited by Tadd1966 on 29/05/2016.
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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I really have to say something about the idea of Spain being unaffected by the crisis. (MickeyFinn). I don't know which part of Spain you are in, but I can tell you the change here in Andalucia is palable. Not many Mercs or Audis - but more importantly - very few young people. That would be because they have all had to leave to find work. I also used to live in France, and in my opinion, Paris has changed beyond recognition in the past 20 years. Just like many, many places in the UK. I have not followed this thread much, but what I would like to know in terms of the UK, is what anyone is going to do to slow the none EU immigration (which is about half of all immigration at the moment), because as far as I can see, this is what we really have to worry about. A lot of the EU migrants (like the young Spanish) will work a few years and go home, though some will stay. It is the continuing flow from the subcontinent that worries me, and leaving the EU will not stop that. Indeed, if a Labour government return, it will become fully open door, as it was under the last Labour government, when it was a cynical quiet policy to boost their potential voter numbers.
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when it was a cynical quiet policy to boost their potential voter numbers.
sorry but I do not buy this!
noen EU immgranst coem to Uk for 3 reasons
1. Work (legal an not) and to do the work the lazy Brits benefit scroungers won't do
2. generous benefits once you are in the UK
3. to escape nasty regimes or the fear of death and tortutre in their homeland
None are EU related with 1 & 2 being a UK problem
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Slightly off topic but, our daughter in law is an occupational therapist in the UK, she has just been offered a 'golden handcuff' deal,' where her employer pays for her to top up her degree to that of the honours flavour, she is then tied to them for either 12 or 24 months (can't recall which). After that she can earn circa £500.00 per day by going self employed, this being classed as the cheap option in respect of getting folk who were high earners/tax payers back into work following illness/injury etc. The UK's benefits regime is very generous to professionals who decide to take the easy option, rather than the stress, however they are not miserable or dissatisfied with their lot, just very misguided by joining the 'owt for nowt' brigade.
This message was last edited by Hephaestus on 29/05/2016.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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So why are the British seeming so miserable and dissatisfied with their lot?
Because maybe, somewhat ironically , many are striving in the UK to retain the standards, laws and system of justice and way of life that made us happy and relatively content with our lot. Standards that have taken years to develop which in the main have proved workable and relatively fair.
We've tackled and overcome so many obstacles over recent decades relating to inclusivity and more harmonious community living, with better working practices and conditions, wiith a decent and relatively efficient structure at its heart in terms of health provision, housing, education, etc a relatively decent system that we were all quite proud of ( although never perfect and much still to do).
So when you see that being eaten away by external factors beyond our control and all the progress being undermined in such a relatively short period of time by unplanned factors outside of our control, I suppose it's inevitable that unrest and vulnerabilities creep into the British psyche.
Also the expectations re our politicians and businesses and finance corporations grew as better regulatory structures were put in place to counter abuse, which again in the main were working well......that is until the financial crisis hit when suddenly we awoke to the realities that all was not as good as we had supposed in terms of the systems that we considered were in place to protect us from such crises. The rest is history as they say.
To be honest however, there are many who find the negative description in terms of abusive alienating selfish and "scrounging" behaviour, that some portray as being typical of British people, is a million miles away from their own firsthand experiences in the UK, although there will always be a minority as with most societies.
But it sounds from the description you portray Tadd as though in Spain the British have come from the worst elements of our society, and certainly not content with their lot ...... but rather than generalise it's best they defend themselves as many have equally suggested they are quite happy and love their lives in Spain. Perhaps this is a regional disparity, who knows.
But back to the UK, given all the rapid changes , concerns have definitely grown and the referendum has given vent to many of their frustrations.
As for never being satisfied, perhaps much depends on people's perception of these things, some for instance might interpret "moaning" as always being discontent with their lot, whereas others might perceive it as recognising problem areas and striving for solutions!
Don't know if this provides some explanation but I hope it might shed a little light.
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Roly wrote:
I really have to say something about the idea of Spain being unaffected by the crisis.
I think that's fair comment Roly I have seen the devastation the recession has caused in Spain for myself. What I was referring to was the people’s mood. The Spanish got on with hardship and stayed cheerful and did not and do not blame all their ills on the EU. There is very little anti EU sentiment in Spain even among the ‘Indignados’ Anti austerity but not anti EU.
Perhaps that's something they are used too, hardship has always been part of Spanish life. The home evictions were a terrible stain until the government acted to prevent it.
I first came to Spain during Franco's time. My school headmaster was a personal friend and he organised school trips to Madrid and beyond. I was a source of regret that I chose to do something else when given the opportunity to meet the Generalissimo in person. Anyway the poverty and hardship Spain endured in those times is etched in the memories of every generation and is handed down.
I suspect the younger Spanish would endure adversity far better than the current generation of iphone/facebook obsessed Brits. For whom working hard for the minimum wage is unacceptable yet benefit claiming is a national sport.
I simply am trying to point out that most of the anti EU sentiment on this thread has almost nothing to do with the European Union and everything to do with national government in the last twenty years.
So cheer up everyone the 23 June will soon be here and Britain can have its final say. Hardship may well be then something everyone will have to get used to.
Ads great post it arrived after I wrote mine. Well thought out and constructive. Thank you.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 29/05/2016.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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I think it is even simpler Mickyfinn - though I agree with much of what you replied. I think most Spanish people are very aware of how much Spain has got out of being an EU member, whereas a lot of Brits cannot see the good and focus on the negative.
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Micky. I don't know who you know scrounging in the UK but my 3 kids and all of their friends are all working long hours either holding down two and more jobs or running their own businesses. They also seem to have time to help others in charities either practically or raising money. My middle daughter has a position which I assumed was highly paid but I was shocked that her initial 6 months was considered "still part of university" (she has two excellent degrees) and unpaid!
I'm pretty sick of the negative nonsense about young people. I'm often touched by the kindness of youngsters in the UK and I know one thing for sure, it's a lot harder to find a job and certainly to make a career than it was for me.
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MM,
It's the bitter coffin dodgers who do all the spouting, it's the young that flew the Spitfires, explored the extremites, went into space, etc; but that doesn't shut them up. I love the young folk, even some of their music is worth a listen, they are far more racially tolerant and have to put up with being led by some really suspect politicians, I can actually remember what it was like in the 60's, can anyone else?
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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I still have a lot of interest in th uk from business to friends and family
Yes there are a lot of hard working people all over but there are also many families with multiple generations of benefit scroungers sll over uk who cost the country a lot more than migrants eu or elsewhere
Many if the could easily be as mobile as those coming from the eu but they won't and even in their owns towns many will simply not work
Many times check in to a hotel go to a pub or a restaurant shops and even the nhs I am served by a non UK person. I have no problem with that but why are those on benefits not applying or doing these jobs
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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I can actually remember what it was like in the 60's, can anyone else?
There's an old saying Heph if you can remember the sixities you were not there.
Of course we are generalising about the young. There are some fine young people I would consider a previlege to know. Then there is the stereo type of Vicky Pollard. y.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxCPj40eFNc
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Micky, you're missing out on making yet another fortune by wasting your time talking to the likes of me.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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I can actually remember what it was like in the 60's, can anyone else?
It was real bad man, we were having a gas.
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Actually tteedd if you were in any sort of job that had a dress code you were completely snookered, we rebelled gloriously and finally saw victory in the 70's. I well recall that the best membership discos/night clubs had doormen that enforced a dress code that included collar and tie, jacket and smart shoes, whereas the remakes that have all the guys wearing Levis, T shirts and sneakers in the 60's have the decade wrong, and drugs were something that the doctor gave you.
This message was last edited by Hephaestus on 30/05/2016.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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Back on thread .......
According to this
http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/press-releases/spain-italy-and-portugal-join-poland-romania-and-hungary-key-countries-driving-growth
Italy and Portugal join Poland, Romania and Hungary as key countries driving the growth of the UK’s EU migrant population
13th April 2016
Three crisis-hit Eurozone countries rank alongside eastern European accession countries as the EU member states whose UK-resident populations have grown the most between 2011 and 2015, a new commentary from the Migration Observatory at the University of Oxford shows today.
The latest analysis – Pulling Power: Why Are EU Citizens Migrating to the UK? – analyses key domestic and international factors that could have made the UK an attractive destination for EU migrants in recent years. The commentary is part of a project funded by the Economic and Social Research Council’s UK in a Changing Europe initiative.
Six countries – Poland, Romania, Spain, Italy, Hungary and Portugal – have been responsible for 80% of the growth in the UK’s EU-born population since 2011.
While some of the factors encouraging migration to the UK are permanent (such as the attraction of the English language and the presence of well-established migrant communities here), others have the potential to change over time. Economic factors like high unemployment in southern Europe and lower wages in Eastern Europe, for example, are likely to be key drivers of recent migration. How they will evolve in coming years is difficult to predict.
The gap in average disposable incomes between UK and Poland (adjusted for purchasing power) has almost halved since mid-2000s, but the gap with Romania remains significant.
Madeleine Sumption, Director of the Migration Observatory at the University of Oxford said: “There is no single factor driving high levels of EU migration in recent years. Some drivers are likely to remain in place for some years, such as the relatively low wages in new EU member states, particularly Romania. Others could potentially dissipate more quickly, like high unemployment in Spain.”
The commentary notes that it is too early to tell how the introduction of the National Living Wage will affect migration: while it may increase the financial advantage of moving to the UK from a lower-income EU country, it could also push UK employers to rely less on low-wage workers, including those from the EU.
Sumption added: “Despite recent debates about the role of UK policies like welfare benefits or the minimum wage in driving migration, migration may respond more to factors that governments don’t directly control, like demographics and economic growth in other EU countries.”
Recent increases in migration from key southern and eastern European countries of origin have taken place despite declining numbers of youth—the people most likely to migrate—in those countries. The population of 20-34-year-olds in Hungary, Italy, Poland, Portugal, Romania and Spain has declined by 6.3 million - or about 15% - since 2006.
Also according to this
http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/migration-flows-a8-and-other-eu-migrants-and-uk
The population of EU-born in the UK stood at just over 3 million in the first quarter of 2015
As of Q1 of 2015, approximately 1.9 million EU-born were employed in the UK labour market
EU inflows accounted for close to 48% of total non-British inflows in 2014 (note only 2014 figures)
Half of all EU nationals coming to the UK in 2014 were nationals of accession countries
The number of new NINo registrations to EU nationals in the first quarter of 2015 was 216,609 in total. Of those, 31% were EU14 nationals, 21% A8 nationals, and 24% A2 & other Accession nationals
According to this
Key points
- Most non-EU nationals who are subject to immigration control are not allowed access to 'public funds' (such as jobseekers’ allowance or tax credits), although they can use public services like the NHS and education.
More...
- EU citizens who are working have similar access to the benefits as UK citizens. For jobseekers or people not working, the rules for determining eligibility can be complex and vary depending on the type of benefit in question.
More...
- The current government has introduced various restrictions on European Economic Area (EEA) citizens’ access to benefits. Their impacts on total welfare spending are hard to quantify but are not likely to be large.
More...
- Foreign born people are less likely to be receiving key Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) out-of-work benefits than the UK born, but more likely to be receiving tax credits.
More...
- It is unclear whether current or proposed welfare restrictions would reduce future immigration.
More...
This message was last edited by ads on 30/05/2016.
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good article but what use is it if we have no answer to the quesion below
What will happen to all of these people if the UK votes to exit the EU and will EU citzens be stopped from coming to UK to work etc?
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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I don't know is the honest answer Tadd, but I thought that the out campaigners have stated that they want to regain control of EU migrants i.e. have a points based system similar to Australia so as to retain EU migrants that they need in the UK, as opposed to being dictated to by the EU.
The concerning aspect for many I suspect is also the ongoing enlargement of the EU and having controls in place.
You would have thought however that both the EU and UK will do little with regard to anything that will directly impinge on their own best interests (i.e. cutting off their nose to spite their face!).
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this is the main probelm I see for the exiters - nobody knows what will happen
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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It's also been suggested by some that nobody knows what will happen if the UK remains In the EU.....
Which begs the question from the In campaigners as to what commitment has been given from the EU to reform and effectively address the migration vulnerabilites, given the the Turkish PM stated that there was no guarantee that he would adhere to the recent agreements with the EU if their accession was not speeded up.
One aspect to consider is that this referendum appears to have focused people's minds on the failings within the EU and the UK Govt, which has only accentuated people's concerns, so it will be interesting to see what transpires in both scenarios.
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