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There is no time to formulate a redesign of the EU - it has taken many years of good and mis-management to have got to where it is today. Two and one half months is not long enough, either, to even start negotiations between the ins and outs of the situation. There is only time now to be sensible - ´Better the devil you know ......... ´. And the devil that was there before Britain decided to enter the EU, has changed completely. If the UK votes to be out of the EU, then it has never deserved to be in and, in consequence, should never be allowed in again after it has realised its mistake! Forgive if I blaspheme, but it will be like Jesus on his cross saying, ´Lord, why has thou forsaken me?´, but, this time, without forgiveness of the Lord Europe.
Wake-up Britain, your Nemesis is nigh.
Victor
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Gordon Brown said, back in about 2000, that Britain was now a service economy and no longer a manufacturing economy. Reading people saying that the UK should be concentrating on ‘Service’ industries worries me as much today as it did when I heard ‘prudence’ Brown many years ago.
What is a ‘service’ economy – Financial Services making Bankers richer, Serving Cappuccinos in Starbucks or the International Health Service?
The UK is still a manufacturing nation, and other countries envy our design and enginerring skills.
In February 2009 British car makers, under a labour government, close to the end of the 13 year Blair rich project, produced 60,000 cars. In February 2014 130,000 cars were produced in the UK and in February 2015 the figure was 147,000. These figures are from the SMMT, the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders. So those who always blame Margaret Thatcher for the UK’s troubles and not the years of Blair, Brown, Blunket and Balls should be congratulating the coalition and current government for getting UK production going.
They do, however need to take a long term, strategic, nationalist but not nationalisation, approach to the Steel and other national infrastructure industries. This should include looking at other countries, particularly in the EU, China and America. Then they may decide that ‘playing by the rules’ is something that seems only to happen in the UK.
The falsehoods and scaremongering will go on, but do have a look at the recent YouTube of Nigel Ferage having a Rant at Merkell and Hollande in the EU chamber. Her face is n absolute picture. Shame Ferage didn’t also mention that London is the fourth largest French city.
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'There is no time to formulate a redesign of the EU.'
Agreed
Our politicians have not managed it in 40 years.
They have not even made a dent in the CAP.
You cannot reform it from inside.
We will have more influence outside.
Time we left.
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Sorry - Car production figures were 130,00 in February last year and 147,000 in february this year.
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What are you saying tteedd? If you cannot reform from inside, then you certainly cannot do so from the outside - what good will that be for the UK? Or are you anti UK?
Do you, or anyone else, think that I want to see the UK destroyed forever? I am facing my own, personal, final horizon - will I enjoy seeing my loved country shrivel and die before I do? I have seen my father´s death, my mother´s, my ex wife´s, my daughter´s and my sister´s also. My heart is already broken, but none of my family comitted suicide, not as Britain will be doing if it votes itself out of the EU!
And Mike and Helen - practically everything the UK produces is owned by ´other countries´ - a name does not make a nation, so what is enviable in that. The employees may get a reasonable wage, but that does not make the country richer - just consider TATA, Starbucks, Jaguar and Landrover for instance ....... !
Victor
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Why is no one from the in campaign prepared to identify how reform from within can be achieved or identify what reform in their opinion needs to be addressed?
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Britin,
Quite a passionate and emotional resonse.
However, when Nicky Morgan, the education secretary says that there will be a lost generation if we leave the EU then she cannot have any concept of the lost generation that has been created by those passionate supporters of open borders, free trade and politically correct multi culturallism.
Having worked in the Middle East for almost five years, followed by 27.5 years on the streets of London, and seeing the pace of change accelerate, it's Europe that's heading for the crash, not the UK.
Safer out than in. And those relatives that you mention, mine fought for and saved our country in the last century, not to be sold out to the strongest political force in Europe. i ask myself, why is Germany saying it needs so may migrants? to work in it's industries and care for it's elderly. Why can't they get them from their closest neighbour, like we do, or countries like Spain which has such high unemployment??
The simple answer it that the UK has been suckered into the game that the most powerfull woman in Europe has been playing, and it's actually no co-incidence that the UK economy is growing, it's because we are outside the Eurozone and whilst there are issues with foreign aid, we are not bankrolling the other countries in Europe such as Greece in the same way that Germany is.
Sorry if it offends you but in my opinion the Euro is a failed experiment, and countries such as Spain would do better if they could adjust their exchange rates according to trading conditions with other countries, not according to the wishes of the strongest economy in Europe.
The British people have the right to self determination. We do know how to work with the rest of the World.
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Ads wrote:
Why is no one from the in campaign prepared to identify how reform from within can be achieved or identify what reform in their opinion needs to be addressed?
I think David Cameron achieved some significant reforms for the UK. It’s all too easy to dismiss them when people are trying to make political points and influence a generation.
This debate should not be personalised. By that I mean concentration on matters which affect individuals. In doing that you miss the big picture. That is voting to remove your country from one of the greatest political and economic experiments Europe has ever undertaken.
If Britain walks away it will be isolated from main stream Europe with all the negative repercussions that will involve.
Like all experiments the EU is work in progress. Yes reforms are needed future changes are inevitable but you first need agreements and cooperation. Ideas and reforms benefit some and not others; one reform is gained at someone else’s expense. That requires negotiation and a form of horse trading.
Every member nation has ideas for reforming the CAP but like any family it has to be achieved by compensating in some way they who lose. That requires negotiation, skill, diplomacy and good will.
Despite all the cynicism and criticisms the EU and the ECB saved Greece, Spain and Ireland from going under in the last financial crisis. It has been generous to refugees in need of shelter and dealing with the crisis with a policy which may work. Politics is always about the art of the possible.
If Britain leaves it will not be involved in European affairs any longer. It will not have any influence or the ability to force through change. It will become an off shore island watching other nations across the channel achieve, reform and move forward. Britain will make it’s way alone yes but no one will take any notice or care. Its economy will decline not thrive.
Think about a Britain before it joined the EU and the prosperity it achieved after. I remember those days. British industry was in a dire state the country required an IMF bailout and you could only legally leave the UK with £40 in Sterling. These are the realities in a modern world of a country going it's own way.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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If by chance the vote is 'OUT' will the folk scared to death of being part of a tiny inconsequential blot on the atlas pick up their bags and relocate to a huge sophisticated metropolis such as Spain? After all there will be tumble weed blowing down our high streets without Brussels, The Hague and Berlin to hold our hands, and don't concern youselves over your pensions, they will have dissapeared down a black hole by then.
Or perhaps with the shackles taken off we might just fulfill our potential and become a nation with a voice once again, our days of sabre rattling are over but our diplomatic service is the oldest and the best in the free world, someone has got to be able to whisper in the ear of the Americans and be treat seriously, after all they have no concept of what the likes of ISIS are about, hence Trump's sudden popularity.
Think hard before you cast your votes guys, after all the 'IN's' might just be right.
_______________________
I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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A financial commentator on Bloomberg this morning described a Brexit vote as 'a leap into the dark'. Meaning voters have no real idea of the concequences for the nation if they vote 'leave'. Given that is probably an accurate description for both sides it surely is always better to remain with the devil you know.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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The devil is in the detail Mickeyfinn and therein lies the problem. No one is prepared to identify the ongoing changes they even aspire to or how realistically they could ever be achieved given there are 28 member states pulling in different directions, each with their own agendas, few complying with regulations ( which immediately undermines their worth) or even suggest if this would take one/ two or more generations to achieve.
Looking from outside the box it's like spoilt children who refuse to recognise from the outset what they are doing is irrational and wrong, unwilling to comply with fair rules that allow them to develop within civilised proven boundaries, and with a parent somewhat hypocritical ( and unaccountable) espousing rhetoric but in reality only looking to their own self interests and unwilling to face some uncomfortable realities..... chaos?
This message was last edited by ads on 04/04/2016.
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I agree ads the EU is often like that but I cannot think of an alternative that would work much better. Imagine if the EU did not exist for a moment. The idea of individual countries all serving the own interests and remaining at peace with their neighbours stretches the imagination somewhat. History has shown us the opposite happens.
Whatever the vote, those of us who remain living in Europe will continue to have our lives influenced by the EU. If British by birth we will become just a little more separated from our native roots if the UK leaves. Perhaps that's no bad thing.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 04/04/2016.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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'The idea of individual countries all serving the own interests and remaining at peace with their neighbours stretches the imagination somewhat. History has shown us the opposite happens.'
Of all the lies and misinformation spread by the 'in' campaign this is perhaps the biggest or worst.
1. There never has been a case of democracies going to war with each other and there is no reason why Europe should become diffierent.
2. Most of the countries of Europe are full members of NATO. NATO has kept the peace for the past 65 years and will continue to do so.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 04/04/2016.
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Here is a link to the best analysis I've come across so far in the debate.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35946617
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Britin
I do not usually reply by name, but just quote the offending statement.
However your whole reply of the 3rd was initially addressed to me and was emmotional nonsense.
I am not quite as old as you, but the previous generations in my family have all gone. Some of them prematurely fighting for our democracy and freedom in the two World Wars.
In the economic argument the outers seem to have command of facts while the inners spout thoughts and claims with no back up or even just plain wrong.
In the democratic and emotional argument. I love the idea of living in a free vibrant democracy where the people chose thier representatives.
The fact is that as far as I am concerned the economic, democratic and emotional argument is won by the BREXITers.
I voted to stay in in '75. I hoped, wished and believed that the EEC could and would become a fine thing. I was wrong. It is undemocratic, corrupt and incapable of improvement.
We should leave.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 04/04/2016.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 04/04/2016.
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It's a big world out there. I don't believe those advocating Brexit have made anywhere near an economic case for leaving, quite the contrary. I don't want to risk my families future on them getting back a British Empire with the economic empire crumbling around them. Our biggest trading partners outside the EU, the USA and China, have already said they see us a minor player unless part of the EU. That doesn't leave many for us to trade with since our Commonwealth buddies have set up new agreements elsewhere.
And NATO protecting Europe? Yes, from outside aggression. Nowhere in their remit does protecting EU countries from each other come into it. May I again remind you that the only two European countries to have had a go at each other, Greece and Turkey, were not in the EU but were both part of NATO.
And though I realise that currency fluctuates on a regular basis, surely even those who are for leaving must realise the pound is dropping (down to 1.25 today) mainly because of the uncertainty that has crept in over the referendum. No-one is buying British bonds at the moment because the pound is forecast to drop even further should the UK leave.
(Before anyone shouts that a low pound is good for exports, may I point out that it has been belaboured many times that the UK has a large defecit in its balance of payments so making imports cost more would hardly be a good thing).
The deal Cameron has made with the EU will become a treaty if the vote is to remain.
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tteedd wrote:
Of all the lies and misinformation spread by the 'in' campaign this is perhaps the biggest or worst.1. There never has been a case of democracies going to war with each other and there is no reason why Europe should become diffierent.2. Most of the countries of Europe are full members of NATO. NATO has kept the peace for the past 65 years and will continue to do so.
Not so I'm afraid (please note I did not call your statement a lie). Here is a list from Wikipedia. You could add the first world war because Germany had a form of democracy at the time alough the Kaiser was head of state.
20th Century.
First Balkan War (1912–13).
Polish–Lithuanian War: Fought in 1920,
Israeli War of Independence: against Lebanon
First Kashmir War Ranked as a full-scale war between democracies i
Six-Day War
Turkish invasion of Cyprus.
Paquisha War: War fought in 1981 between Ecuador and Peru. The leaders of both countries had been democratically elected.
Yugoslav Wars: Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia were all multiparty democracies.
Cenepa War: A brief 1995 sequel of the Paquisha War between Ecuador and Peru
21st Century
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 04/04/2016.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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The Link is not to analysis but to supposition.
'Suppose that, or something like that, happens. What next, for the government and for Parliament? How would MPs deliver the decision the British people had just voted for?
The first point to make is that the process cannot easily be separated from the political mayhem that would then unfold.'
It even states that it is supposition!
The BBC on the whole, whilst congratulating itself on it's supposed lack of bias, take the current metropolitan PC view.
Dislike him, as I do, Mr Cameron is clear leader of the Conservative party and there is no reason at all why he should not lead the separation negociations if he wants to, with little political mayhem. He said he would do so if the terms were not good enough. The nation will have told him that the terms were not good enough.
My supposition is that if we vote to leave we will find ourselves being asked to vote again on new terms and give the 'right' answer, as Ireland and Denmark did, within two years.
To me Out should mean Out but I doubt if it will. But that is just supposition.
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Yes, I'm glad you say it is only a supposition.
Cameron made a speech to parliament which clearly says a second referendum is not going to happen.
An idea has been put forward that if the country votes to leave we could have a second renegotiation and perhaps another referendum.Mr Speaker I won’t dwell on the irony that some people who want to vote to leave – apparently want to use a leave vote to remain.But such an approach also ignores more profound points about democracy, diplomacy and legality.This is a straight democratic decision – staying in or leaving – and no government can ignore that.Having a second renegotiation followed by a second referendum is not on the ballot paper.And for a Prime Minister to ignore the express will of the British people to leave the EU would not just be wrong, it would be undemocratic.On the diplomacy, the idea that other European countries would be ready to start a second negotiation is for the birds.
The full speech to parliament can be read here
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The definition of democracy seems to be being stretched to the limit.
I would define democracy as having full universal sufferage and that a country ceases to become a democracy when it exceeds its terms of office, becomes a dictatorship or the electoral process is corrupt..
Many of the countries listed did not even give lip service to democracy.
Despite the claims of France and the US I count the UK as the first modern country to move toward democracy and probably (more research needed) NZ as the first full democracy.
I was going to conceed Kashmir. But I can't conceed Pakistan as being a democracy at the time.
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