| The Comments |
Destry,
Never mind the punctuation, learn how to spell!
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Come on guys, keep it BREXIT.
There is no need to be pulling people up for spelling mistakes, this won't change the world.
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ads said,
"Who knows perhaps such aspects as Brexit has exposed will be the wakeup call to gradually refocus on citizens genuine needs and rights and restore some well overdue balance away from excessive corporate greed, misuse of power, manipulative attempts to misinform, and attain greater accountability in that process. Quite a tall order...."
I say, this is exactly why we are demanding that the government disclose their Brexit plans before they take them forward. The EU is not going to negotiate the Article 50 issues one by one. They are going to say what is your plan for leaving the EU, in toto. They will not accept cherry picked negotiations. That is the first rule of negotiations. So our cards will all have to go on the table before we get started. Why do people in the EU get to know before we do? Attempting to do that is a misuse of power. "Brexit means Brexit" and "I will not provide a running commentary" is a manipulative attempt to hide information from the public.
We need to appreciate that we are going to be novices compared to the EU in these negotiations and stop shooting the messangers who point that out or accuse them of being disloyal.
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PP, you said:
I say, this is exactly why we are demanding that the government disclose their Brexit plans before they take them forward. The EU is not going to negotiate the Article 50 issues one by one. They are going to say what is your plan for leaving the EU, in toto. They will not accept cherry picked negotiations. That is the first rule of negotiations.
In my experience, the first rule of negotiations is to ask for more than you think you will get, this then leaves room for negotiation. If you ask for what you want you will be 'negotiated down'.
This may be the reason that TM is not disclosing what we want or 'giving a running commentary' as once it is public knowledge what we want, we will get less.
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Mitigate the risks and maximise the opportunity, that's what many now aspire to.
Blame games should be replaced by a willingness to learn from the mistakes, to build a consensus, and this is where I take issue with the EU bureaucrats whose intransigent and aggressive protectionist approach works counter to achieving mutually beneficial goals.
If their intent from the outset is to castigate the UK and prevent at all costs any form of contagion by other member states, then such intransigence could well backfire by causing greater division and distrust in a bureaucratic system unwilling to recognise a need for reform, unwilling to accept mistakes in seeking a federal system that does not suit the needs of all.
As for negotiations the EU cannot nor should they dictate the ground rules from the outset if this is to be an honest intent to achieve a mutually beneficial outcome. Such a dictatorial and arrogant approach only further alienates the very citizens who will be affected by their decision making.
P.s. it takes courage and humility to admit to mistakes, to retain an open mind and willingness when seeking solutions, something that many in the politicial and economic arenas sadly appears somewhat lacking...
This message was last edited by ads on 06/01/2017.
This message was last edited by ads on 06/01/2017.
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Britain wants but won't get:-
- Free access to the single market.
- Prohibition of free movement of people.
- No EU budget contributions.
- Released from the jurisdictions of the ECJ.
- All current EU laws transferred into British law.
- Separate trade deals with the USA, Canada and anyone else they can find willing.
The EU wants Britain to agree their terms for any concessions, which are:-
- No access to the single market without free movement. “whoever would like to have free access to the European internal market will also have to accept all basic freedoms in return, including the free movement of people.” Angela Merkle
- British budget contributions paid until 2020.
- Britain to remain subject to the scope of the ECJ. If it wants any formal concessions.
- No separate trade deals if Britain wants to be part of the customs union.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 06/01/2017.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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We don't want ALL current EU laws transferred into UK law; and why can't we have trade deals with other countries?
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Thank you Micky, you have just confirmed there is a plan, when all along the remoaners were saying there was none. Don't know why no-one asked you before today what the plan was.
Unless of course this is all idle speculation, like your other postings?
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I wasn't aware that Canada had to accept all those pre-conditions Mickeyfinn?
Too little emphasis is placed on adhering to the current system which is failing, as opposed to correcting the failures within the process of negotiations, such that for instance, the need to widen the scope to take better account of differentials between member states when determining the rules of free movement, to better comprehending the issues relating to democratic deficits that relate to law making. ...
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BigAl - Unless of course this is all idle speculation, like your other postings?
The list contains all publically stated aspirations by both sides. It's no mystery what the negations will be about. The actual unknowns are how far either side will concede their established position. My best guess is no compromises will be made and a consequent hard Brexit and Britain’s economy off a cliff. Enjoy.
In the imortal words of Donald Rumsfeld - There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. Then there are also things we don't know we don't know.
Sums up this thread nicely.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 06/01/2017.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Well the Bank of England have admitted that they got their predictions wrong in respect of the impact of Brexit, to be fair to them they have held their hands up, I wonder who's next.
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IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.
THANK YOU.
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Micky
The 'idle speculation' is that you say they want but won't get, the 'won't get' is what is idle speculation.
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I don't get this trade deals with other countries they are already in place as the uk is member of WTO it's own right and as an EU member
I can't see any country giving anything in way if a special trade deal with uk or anything better than what currently exists. None owe the uk any favours and the uk has nothing unique to offer
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Tadd,
Why can't we get a better deal than WTO with other countries. Sure, they don't owe us any favours (and nor we them), but if it's mutually beneficial, why not? All i see from some of the remainers is negativity. Can they not find any positives?
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Tenerife
Who with and why would they give the uk anything better they currently have or better than with the eu or any other country
There is nothing positive about brexit to say
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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If it's mutually beneficial. Don't forget we're not allowed to have our own trade deals while in the EU.
This message was last edited by tenerife on 06/01/2017.
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Tadd
There is nothing positive about brexit to say.
That's what the bank of England said and now they are eating their words, your turn will come.
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Many of the remainers have lorded Mark Carney for his doom and gloom Brexit predictions, now that it is clear that the BOE has changed it's stance, what is their current opinion of him? I have no problem with him or his chief economist Andrew Haldane, anyone is entitled to their opinion, but when they admit that they were wrong they have gone up a couple of rungs of the ladder with me for their honesty.
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IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.
THANK YOU.
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The European Union’s Brexit negotiators will offer British people a chance to individually remain part of the EU, according to media reports in Britain. There was potentially some good news on Friday for all those Brits in Spain who were unhappy about the EU referendum result. The Independent newspaper claimed on Friday that Guy Verhofstadt, the man put in charge of Brexit negotiations by the European parliament, will fast-track a proposal that would allow Brits to opt-in and maintain their EU citizenship. It had already been revealed that the EU was considering a plan to allow Brits to stay as EU citizens but Verhofstadt has now “fast-tracked the idea to the negotiating table”, the Independent writes. Verhofstadt described the proposal as “very important” and that it had “captured the imagination and hopes” of many British people who wished to retain their rights as EU citizens. According to the Independent the chief negotiator told the European Parliament's committee on constitutional affairs: “It is an important amendment that has captured the imagination and hopes of many of the 48 per cent of Brits that have voted to remain in the EU. You will all have received many emails about this - and there has been many articles about this. “It has therefore become a very important issue that cannot await treaty change - as envisaged by MP Charles Goerens when he first tabled it. “I am therefore proposing to remove it from my report - which after all is concerned with Treaty change - and to include it in the negotiations we will have with the UK government. I as Brexit negotiator for the Parliament will ensure that it is included in the parliament’s negotiating mandate.” Under the plan Brits would be offered individual “associate citizenship” which would allow them to hold on to their freedom of movement across the Union and therefore live and work wherever in the EU they choose. They would also be allowed to vote in European elections. That could potentially save Brits in Spain the hassle of either having to apply for a long term residency permit – or get Spanish citizenship, both of which many British nationals in Spain have been making efforts to get since the June referendum. Now the UK has voted to leave the EU many Britons living in Spain will no doubt explore the possibility of becoming a Spanish citizen. Here’s some guidance. British expats in Spain will be forgiven for feeling uneasy after the majority of their compatriots back home voted to leave the European Union. Although the impact of Britain leaving the EU on the lives of expats is not clear some British nationals do not want to wait around to find out. Some are already considering Spanish citizenship.
Nationality via residence
Becoming a Spanish citizen requires giving up your British nationality and passport. This form of requiring nationality requires the person concerned to have been a legal resident of Spain for an uninterrupted period of ten years immediately prior to the application. According to Spain’s Foreign Office applicants must prove “good citizenship” and “a sufficient degree of integration in Spanish society” - which includes being able to speak Spanish and taking part in social activities with Spaniards. Applications must be submitted to the Civil Registry of the place of residence. Once you have been approved, you have to swear your loyalty to the King and promise to obey the Spanish constitution and laws. You also have to renounce your previous nationality.
Marriage
One way to drastically shorten the waiting time to gain Spanish nationality is to be married to a Spaniard. If you have been married to a Spaniard for at least one year, you can apply for Spanish nationality, also via the Civil Registry in your place of residence. You have to still be married to a Spaniard upon application, no separated or divorced people need apply. Widows and widowers of Spaniards can also immediately apply for Spanish citizenship.
Spanish parents
You can apply for Spanish nationality if one or both of your parents or grandparents is Spanish, even if they were born outside of Spain. Conversely you can also apply for citizenship if you were born in Spain to foreign parents. Again, you need to contact your local Civil Registry.
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NO SNIDE COMMENTS PLEASE. STICK TO THE THREAD SUBJECT.
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Al
A bit early for anyone to be eating their words and all they got wrong was the impact of the initial shock
You don't need to be an expert to see a dip after the vote easily picks up as the uk is still in the eu and will be for at least just over 2 years
The real impact will be seen once the negotiations start and even when concluded
Then we shall see the real impacts and then many may be eating words
The worst has yet to come
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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