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Tadd.
Forewarned is forearmed. (prior knowledge of possible dangers or problems gives one a tactical advantage.) I have successfully lived my life by that rule and I 'aint going to change now.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Tadd. And if the answer is no to any agreements, the tactics are?
also, just a point in question if poss please. Contributions to NHS through NI don't have a pesonal pot building up, it's a national pot.
If someone gets citizenship and moves over in the UK, they are entitled straight away to NHS treatment. It's precisely the argument over the amount of people currently joining the treatment entitlement that the leave campaign have been kicking a fuss about.
To say 'I paid for years and am entitled' is perhaps missing the point that the cost of treatment in the 1960’s for example, didn't include all the advances we pay for now.
Is it really the case that we should continue paying the fees abroad for expats? As the previous poster says, it needs an agreement in place between countries we have close relationships with first.
Any EU blockage of those negotiations is just trying to preserve their self importance and not living in a free market (which they promote by the way).
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Best wishes, Brian
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Firstly, NHS has its own budget and does not come from NI contributions.
Someone moving to UK will not get citizenship straight away. They will be classed as residents which is a UK fault and, if they followed the EU rules, wouldn't happen.
The money paid into taxes in UK doesn't matter. You might have paid less because you were being paid less but as a percentage there's not much difference.
Expats have paid into the system and many of us still are. I pay quite a lot of tax in UK (hubby and my pensions are taxed at source). If we moved back to UK how much more of a drain would be on the system?
EU blocking is not living in a free market? I thought it was UK that voted to leave the free market. If UK wants to leave the system then they leave the system. After all, Brexit means Brexit, doesn't it? Cherry picking what you want and don't want will not come into it and smacks of arrogance.
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Hi.
The origin of the NI contributions, I believe, was an insurance paid towards both illness and unemployment.
The NHS does have a ring fenced budget, the amount it requires is greater than ever before and is paid through taxation, including NI and income tax. Thats my understanding anyway.
Taxation is based on income / earnings or unearned, not pension, although pension becomes earnings if its greater than a persons allowance, the state pension isnt that high to create tax burdens.
EU was the common market wasnt it? The free market includes everyone (yep including EU countries) and blockages by the EU in the formation of agreements between nations would indeed be very arrogant, I agree,
Brexit means....er a continental brexit a full english brexit or as one politician said the other day a dogs brexit!!
This message was last edited by briando55 on 20/10/2016.
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Best wishes, Brian
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NI was, originally, seen as an insurance against illness and unemployment but that stopped many, many years ago. NI is ring fenced and cannot be used for anything else than the following:
State pensions, Widows bereavement benefits, incapactiy benefit, unemployment benefit and maternity allowances. It is not used to fund the NHS in any form.
Any surplus goes into the National Insurance Fund and interest earned on it goes to pay off the national debt. The actual capital in the fund cannot be used for that.
NHS is paid for out of general taxation, not the NI contributions.Therefore, the amount of taxes I paid in 45 years plus the amount of taxes I pay now more than covers any contributions paid to Spain. If I were Spanish, I would also be receiving free treatment. Isn't that what the EU was supposed to do?
Yes, private health insurance and the Convenio Especial can be purchased but the costs become extremely onerous once you reach retirement age. The vast majority of EU citizens living in UK are young and of working age and a very low drain on the NHS. Should all us aging expats return to UK then the costs to the NHS would be massive due to the fact that very many are now elderly.
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Thanks for that useful information. I have in place my own ‘tactics’ in the event of losing the rights I have enjoyed for years in Europe. It's every man for himself now. Leaving it until the shutters come down means joining a very long queue which incidentally have already begun..
There is a report in today’s Guardian that the applications from Brits abroad for citizenship have shot up since the vote to leave the EU. Sweden seems very popular for the British. Mainly these applications are from younger people with a future to safeguard.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/19/huge-increase-britons-seeking-citizenship-eu-states-brexit-looms
The problem for Brits in Spain is in the main the Spanish don't usually retire to the UK. So when the horse trading begins there is little incentive for Rajoy to agree a quid pro-quo agreement with Mrs May to continue healthcare rights for retired expats. Unless of course the Spanish health service actually enjoys a financial advantage from the payments the UK makes.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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2800 out of what, 2m: hardly significant is it? I don't know about Spain missing the UK's health payments, but i think they'll miss the spending power of the Brit expats and possibly tourists.
This message was last edited by tenerife on 20/10/2016.
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NI was a state sponsored insurance against illness and unemployment, not just seen as one, it was one.
I pay my NI like all employees do, I also pay whats known as class 4 national insurance which is 9% of my net business profit, many many times more than the standard rate of national insurance will cost any average person. Maybe you could enlighten me as to what thats used for too!
Many of the young people of this country, far from paying great swaithes of taxation, are on zero hours, benefits of one kind or another and are more unhealthy than the pensioners in the country.
I dont know very much about the Spanish health system but as far as im aware we are the only free at point of use health service in Europe? What is this Convenio Especial, is it an elite treatment system or something?
Thanks Micky, Sweden being popular because?? Is it out of the EU or in the EU (its in), has it an agreement in place already? (only with the EU I guess) Is it warm enough for the expats there? (doubt it very much) Does it have its own currency still? (yes) Its GDP is about one sixth of ours and about a third of Spains, its taxation is far higher than ours (I think, check on that for us will you). Its integration of other peoples is negligable.
So the attraction with Sweden is a future strategy, not sure that one stacks up.
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Best wishes, Brian
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Doesn't the fact that just for last year alone ( UK pays Spain: £223,290,021 Spain pays UK £3,412,338 ) beg questions of how many Spanish citizens are living in the UK as opposed to the UK citizens living in Spain, and query if this discrepancy indicates that either the UK Govt is not recouping sufficient monies via the existing system, or might it be that as Mariedav has suggested the Spanish Citizens are not an equal draw on our health system as expats living in Spain?
This is where it can become contentious because If the demography is that the majority of UK citizens living in Spain are post retirement age and that pensioners are understandably living for far longer periods than previously accounted for, then perhaps the question then shifts to the need for a more general analysis, to identify how much does the UK economy lose by pensioners continuing to live in Spain (and rightly contributing to the Spanish economy in that process) as opposed to those pensioners living and still contributing to the economy in the UK? Should there be a formula divised to take account of the loss of ONGOING contributions to the UK's economy and could (or should) this form part of a negotiated package?
Surely pensioners in Spain are contributing to the Spanish economy so it would not be in Spain's interest to lose this vital stimulus to assist their growth?
This message was last edited by ads on 20/10/2016.
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Mickyfinn
Forewarned is forearmed. (prior knowledge of possible dangers or problems gives one a tactical advantage.) I have successfully lived my life by that rule and I 'aint going to change now
Good point pity the voting public did not know this prior to the vote
briando55
And if the answer is no to any agreements, the tactics are?
I repeat its a pity the voting public did not aks this question or have this information before making their minds up
The UK has thousands of agreements with many other countries who are not in the EU or EEA. Are the UK planing to renegotiate them all?
The UK NHS is residence based and the "free" health care EU and none EU citizens gets is the UK's problem NODOBY else's and Brexit will NOT fix this - same as welfare benefits that are handed ou to anyone etc. Unles sof coure we really are going to throw the £350M per week into the NHS
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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But.....If the uk is paying 223m, and the pensioners come back, Our health service can have that cash and we can build more hospitals. The pensioners can spend more on their daily budgets here and our businesses will prosper..
Hang on.....if only things were that simple!
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Best wishes, Brian
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Ads
The expat (on boths sides) discussion can get very nuanced. For example, Brits will retire to Spain for the weather, but Spanish will not retire to the UK for the same reason.
On the other hand, younger Spaniards are likely to come here for work, whereas younger Brits are less likely to head to Spain for work (the unemployment stats are about 4.9% for the UK, versus around 20% in Spain).
You could then argue that the Spaniards that are here are givers to the economy, whereas the Brits in Spain are takers to the economy.
And I'm sure it gets even more nuanced than that.
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The annual NHS budget for England alone (Scotland, Wales and NI have their devolved ones) is 116 BILLION pounds a year. NHS Scotland budget is 13 billion a year, Wales is 6 billion and NI is around 11 billion.
Add them all together and see how far that 223 million saved on pensioners will go. Probably last from 8 in the morning until 8 in the evening on one day.
Oh, and pensioners abroad can't claim benefits like pension credits and all the other paraphernalia such as Winter Fuel Allowance. Just imagine how quick the claims would go in once back on Blighty's green and pleasant land.
You're right. If only things were that simple.Fortunately they are going to have grown ups doing the Brexit negotiations (I hope).
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The problem is most pensioners have committed themselves to a life in Europe perhaps many years ago and have ‘burned their bridges’ so to speak.
They can fall back on their children perhaps or relatives if they need to return to the UK after Brexit but that is not very satisfactory for anyone. I hear mobile home parks are now doing good business in Britain.
I have highlighted this potential problem to illustrate Brexit is creating so much anxiety and worry for many British people living in Europe at a time in their lives when it’s not that easy to deal with. The UK government should stop treating people as bargaining chips in a high stakes poker game with the EU.
Surely it’s not beyond the bounds of our political leaders to make clearer statements affecting their people’s future life prospects after Brexit. Human rights should never be reduced to the status of a bargaining chip.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Why on earth would pensioners abroad get pension credits?? I wager the pensioners abroad will have at least the full state pension and not be eligible anyway.
As for winter fuel allowance, its something thats not part of the EU and its also something the government should sort out over here. Only people who need it should get it, otherwise its shameful for someone to take it when they dont need it in my opinion.
Why on earth would pensioners abroad be paid winter fuel allowances either! Whats next a summer cooling allowance.
I think the brits abroad should come back and put to good work, plenty of fruit wants picking and floors to mop, hows that for grown up negotiations 
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Best wishes, Brian
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The EU have not given any assurances to the UK ,about the British expats that live in the EU ,from what l have read the UK will not agree to EU citizen's status in the UK until the EU give assurances.
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I agree Micky Its OK me making light of this situation but the reality is the landscape is changing and no one knows how its going to end up.
The only thing I would say on a more serious note is that nothing has really happened yet and its no use being scared into making snap decisions.
The currency issues are very worrying for peoples income, and for holidays as well, which is why I keep having a big downer on speculators, bankers and financiers. They are simply parasites IMHO.
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Best wishes, Brian
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Well done briando55 for reading the post and completely missing the entire point and putting your own slant on it. No, the Brits don't get pension credits, they don't get WFA but, and here's the point, as soon as they get back to UK they will. But, of course, you realised that so came up with a bit more dross about fruit picking. Well done indeed.
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Thanks for the compliment, I didnt miss the point at all, I just didnt see the point in moaning that these credits are not available (it seemed to me).
One of the holes in your argument is that, if Brits abroad are paying substantial tax, they wont draw pension credits. If Brits abroad come back home. Then they can spend their income over here and not 'over there'.
If winter fuel allowance is £350 on a payment year, the spending of Brits abroad returning over here, of around £15 to 20k per year as a conservative estimate is something of a UK economy winner.
Add to that the stamp duty on buying houses, using associated services, legal work in disposing of foreign assets, making new wills, buying replacement cars, presents for Xmas!!! etc.
Whats not to look forward to, come on down!!!
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Best wishes, Brian
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So, just where was the moan? Again, reading into it what you want. I pointed out they don't claim them but would if they went back to UK. You have also not commented on the relatively low amount the government pays for their healthcare whilst in another UK compared to the actual cost of the NHS.
However, if you wish to read it as a "moan" then that is up to you. Just wrong.
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