| The Comments |
'I never noticed any personal changes to my life style following the UK's entry into the Common Market'
The fishing fleet noticed pretty quickly when our territorial water became the EU's territorial waters. However they don't complain much anymore having become mostly non-existant.
Industry took a hammering with imports from France, Germany and Italy. (Not to say that our industry was in a good state as was inferred last time I made the comment).
Food prices went up as we lost imports from the commonwealth and had to pay artificialy maintained EU prices.
We were told by the politicians we would get cheap food from the EU and a market for our goods. We received exactly the reverse!
We had a positive ballance of trade with the EU before we joined and have had a negative one ever since and to add insult to injury we pay £28M, £38M, £51M or £55M per day (figures from this thread) for the priveledge. The current ballance is £62Billion pa in the EU's favour. Which ever way you look at it we are being stiffed and are in a very good negociating position should we choose to leave.
But even if the position were reversed and they gave us the money to be in and rigged the market in our favour we should leave because the EU is undemocratic, corrupt and unreformable.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 18/03/2016.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 18/03/2016.
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I'm asking myself if there is any further point to this thread. We seem to be writing to each other in a game of ping pong.
Au Revoir.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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I'd go a little further back than that Micky, right to the start of it comes to mind.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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What would be the consequences (good or bad) if the UK left the European Union?
Firstly, if Britain was to leave the EU, the City of London would see a massive outflow of Capital!
Already, major international Banks such as Goldman Sachs and HSBC(which has other reasons as well) have stated that they would seriously consider relocating their London HQ's.
Major Global manufacturers such as Honda, Nissan and the like who have large plants in the UK have already been muttering about the impact. PM Abe and President Obama are known to have communicated their concern about such a move to the British Government. I suspect that Berlin and Beijing have also made their thoughts on the matter very clear.
With +- 45% to 50% of British exports heading into the EU, it is not realistic.
Companies, such as British Aerospace, and its operations within the Airbus consortium, which employs a phenomenal amount of people in the UK, would see future business being lost as Airbus, for example, directs new business towards France, German, Italy and Spain.
As regards EU nationals currently living in the UK, I cannot see them being forced out. Even UKIP is only talking about negotiating annual migration quotas with other EU countries...(This is however, contrary, to the spirit and letter of the EU's founding Treaty - The Treaty of Rome.)
There is also the issue of the +- 1,5 million British nationals living and working in other EU countries.
The British Home Office and it's Croydon-based Border Control Agency at Loonie House have never been able to manage the volume of work they have had for as long as I have been watching them! Administration of a bilateral quota system with 27 EU states will send that agency into orbit and when companies get tired of waiting for permits, like companies in the US using the H1-B program, just watching them relocating to other EU states.
Then there is the Irish question. The UK and the Republic of Ireland operate a joint immigration policy, which allows for open borders between the Republic and Northern Ireland. This has "conveniently" been forgotten in the current debate. Large multi-nationals such as Google and IBM have huge operations in Dublin and depend on large numbers of multi-lingual EU staff. Dublin is not going to agree to a change in arrangements unless perhaps the border between the Republic and Northern Ireland is fenced, and passport control introduced, something that didn't even happen during the "Troubles".
The regional Governments of Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland will also kick up a huge fuss as they are net beneficiaries of EU largesse for development funds. This is just the sort of act that would result in Scotland leaving the United Kingdom.
Access to EU R&D and Erasmus programs as well as agencies like ESA would be curtailed if not cut!
In this world of today, the UK no longer has the military might to go it alone in the world. It is a relatively small island that would be decimated in a couple of nuclear attacks. The UK needs to come out of its funk and start working with the other 27 EU members to ensure it is part of a strong socio-economic and political bloc which has the clout to wrestle with the serious problems facing the world in the next 20 years, including the re-awakening of the Russian Bear, ISIS and the threat from militant Islam, climate change, energy supplies and other potential issues such as the growth of China's strength and the slow deterioration of the role of the US in the world.
Whoever the next Prime Ministers of the UK are to be they will be presented with dossiers of unpalatable facts by their "Sir Humphreys" on the day after their election, the main thrust of which will be that the UK needs Berlin and Paris "on-side"!
They will be forced, somehow, in my opinion, to "fix" a referendum or face being blamed for the slow demise of the UK economy, as the NHS cannot recruit enough EU staff to supplement national recruitment, and many businesses in the service and manufacturing sectors will be unable to expand as bureaucracy slows issue of work permits and not enough Brits want to do the work that many EU nationals currently do.
There would be no "good" consequences in the medium and long term for the UK if it pulled out of the EU.
In closing, the real problem the UK has with membership of the EU is that it has never fully accepted the precepts of the founding fathers of the European Project, especially in respect of "ever closer social, economic and political union"! Unlike the Elysee, the Quai do Orsay, the Bundeskanzleramt and the Auswärtiges Amt, Westminster, Whitehall, and the Foreign Office have never become adept at leveraging maximum benefit out of Brussels and EU membership. This is now becoming even more problematic as fewer Brits are bi- or even multi-lingual and even fewer are seeking careers in the EU institutions.
Consequently, other EU nations whose (oft multi-lingual) nationals staff the Commission and EU agencies, are able to leverage and multiply the benefits their nations gain from the EU. Not so the UK!!!
If the UK does not get its act together in becoming a more inclusive, multi-lingual, open, co-operative "Europe-Centric" nation, I believe the nation (for which read England) will be a backwater situated of the "North-West of Europe"! (Scotland will be independent, Northern Ireland will be part of the EU under some association arrange to keep the locals happy and Wales will be a thorn in London's side!)
"Here endeth the lesson!!" ;)
Postscript (20 May 2015): Very Interesting article in today's Guardian Newspaper about the view of the Confederation of British Industry, Deutsche Bank and others on this issue!
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Omarell
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My, my, my Omarell
Your article is the biggest load of 'biased tosh' I have come across and I reply the same as I did when you said in an earlier post that the 'Hellhole UK' (your words) should be kicked out of the EU (although you now seem to be advocating we should stay in...make up your mind).
My previous reply below:
Hi OMARELL
I totally agree that you if you wish to leave the 'hellhole UK' that is your decision and good luck to you.
Surely then it is acceptable for those left in 'hellhole UK' to want to try and improve their 'hellhole', now some may feel that the way to improve this is to stay in the EU and some may feel it is better to leave the EU. Just as you made your decision, those left behind should be able to make theirs without fear of 'being kicked out'?
You also mention about going back to Victorian times when they suffered the worst poverty, so then surely the UK is not quite the 'hellhole' you portray it to be, because it has obviously been worse than now.
Playing 'Devil's advocate' the UK that is such a 'hellhole' is one which is currently a member of the EU, I rest my case.
This message was last edited by BigAl2015 on 22/03/2016.
This message was last edited by BigAl2015 on 22/03/2016.
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BigAl,
please explain to us the model that you will be advocating if we leave the EU. I have already demonstrated beyond any doubt that the 'Norway' model does not give us anything, in fact it would be a setback. So what will we have if we leave. Please no skirting the issue just put it in black and white so we can all review it.
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There does now seem to be a consensus among main stream financial groups that Brexit will damage the UK economy considerably. It’s not difficult to see that Britain going it alone in a global economy is an impossible concept.
In the event of Brexit the UK will have no choice but to join EFTA which to me seems the worse of all possible worlds. It’s like a second class compartment of nations who have no choice or say in the decision making process, yet have to comply with all EU regulations currently in force and pay the same dues. What on earth is the point of that?
The fact of the matter is that the planet is a global market place and trade is the economic life blood of nations. Nations being what they are put barriers into trade agreements for advantage. A free trade area such as the EU does exactly what it says on the tin. It leads to increased prosperity, wealth and employment creation.
Of course there are downsides to such arrangements. However history has shown the advantages far and away cancel the downsides out.
PS: Here is a quote from Moodys the credit rating agency - The prospect of lengthy and uncertain negotiations would deter foreign investors and limit the profits of mainstream corporations that trade with the rest of the EU.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 22/03/2016.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 22/03/2016.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Perrypower1
I am not advocating 'in or out' and certainly see no point in trying to convince you as you are hardly a 'don't know' are you?
My reply was to Omarell, who listed a load of 'suppositions' as if they were FACT and quoted views from the CBI and HSBC etc.
Firstly the CBI were advocating not so long back that we should adopt the Euro as our currency and why should we listen to any BANK who between them damaged our country and our finances more than any 'supposed' damage a Brexit would do.
What we need to do is keep an open mind and keep bursting the balloon of the 'scaremongers'.
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Brussels bombings another reason to leave the EU to further protect our borders
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Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK
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Brussels bombings another reason to leave the EU to further protect our borders
Why? The 7/7 bombers were born in Britain. Lee Rigby killers were both British born or Ugandan origin (no EU involvement there) and the guy that tried to blow up Glasgow airport was a British born doctor. UK already has its own protection of borders as it has an opt out of Schengen which will be permanent if UK votes to stay in. Unless you think all those Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Ugandan (pick a nationality) will suddenly up and leave if UK leaves the EU then what difference will it make? Even this latest guy they've caught Abdeslam, was born in Belgium and the other, so-called mastermind, was his childhood friend in Belgium. If any of those above had come in recently on the wave of refugees then you might have a point They didn't so you don't.
Spurious reasons for leaving the EU pander to the Facebook crowd.
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Brussels bombings another reason to leave the EU to further protect our borders
Leaving the EU will not make the slightest difference to border controls. The UK already has an opout from Shengen. Free movement of EU passport holders will also still apply if the UK joins the EFTA.
So it's totally misleading and untrue to suggest leaving the EU will protect UK borders
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Dear Big Al
Since I was 18 I always wanted to leave the Uk Tried to get to America and Canada but unable to do so for the lack of family .Since then stuck in Uk for the next 58 years working my butt off to maintain a decent standard of living Now that I have retired decided to go to Spain to live .Because of the lower cost of living able to enjoy a fuller and higher standard of living. But now the danger is that all will be lost if Uk exits EU which will mean my standard of living will reduce Uk levels and probably end up poverty stricken.This will also apply to most Uk expats. That is why us retirees will need to vote to stay in the Eu
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Omarell
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OMARROL
But now the danger is that all will be lost if Uk exits EU which will mean my standard of living will reduce................................... This will also apply to most Uk expats.
Where do you get this from?
It has been said many many times agreements between nations are NOT dependnant upon EU or EEA membership
All agreements between UK and Spain (and other countries eu, EEA or NOT) MIGHT be renegotiated but i doubt it and NOTHING other than scaremongering has indicated that there is any plans to do this.
Yes a Brexit nay have an impact on the £ but nobody knows
Ifteh £ pound drops and yo te paid in £'s then
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Phew. An Brexiter doubts it so we can all breathe a sigh of relief.
So people who want to stay part of the EU are "scaremongers" because they don't want to take a leap into the unknown on the basis of people who cannot articulate what will happen if we do...but as they doubt it will have any negative impacts it must be Okay.
Does anyone remember that joke, "Trust me, I'm a doctor..."
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Perrypower1 / OMARELL
The 'ins' are not necessarily scaremongers, unfortunately quite a few of the 'ins' exagerate the possible consequences of leaving the EU and therefore use 'scare tactics'. You as anyone else who wishes to vote 'in' or 'out' are entitled to their opinion, but please give most of us credit for seeing through the 'exagerations'. It is a difficult enough decision without having to decide what is 'fact' and what is 'fiction'.
I can understand how Ex-Pats are concerned about the future because they are continually bombarded with the 'exagerations of leaving the EU', but I don't think there is anything signifcant to worry about, whichever way the vote goes. Obviously the people who are left behind in the UK will have a different set of criteria when making their decision.
Most people will have their own reasons for voting whichever way they vote and they must weigh up their own circumstances, some will even vote on what they think is the best long term for their children & grandchildren.If you are undecided it is best to try and put a screen up between yourself and the 'exagerations' , because most of the 'exagerations are coming from people with a 'vested interest'.
Bankers: they want to continue with their 'gravy train' of avoiding taxes, paying extortionate bonuses whilst working with the taxpayers money.
Politicians: firstly no politician can be trusted as they are 'in it for themselves', most are 'in the pocket' of the banks, why else would we not be insisting no bonuses to be paid until we have been given back our 'bailout money'?
Corporate business: these are in the pocket of the politicians, either donating to the party or awaiting their 'knighthood'. Noticably Banks and Businesses say 'we may have to move our business outside the UK if the 'no vote' wins. I cannot recall any business saying we will definately move our business outside the UK.
Ex-Pats: self explantory.
MEP's: self explantory.
Those who have already made their mind up: 'in' or 'out': self explantory.
As you can see most of those that predict 'the world is coming to an end' usually come from one of the camps above.
Whichever way you wish to vote it is your choice and should be respected by all.
As a footnote to all this:If the 'no vote' should win and as reported it is expected that DC would have to step down, should not all the politicians in the Conservative party who backed the 'in vote' step down and then have a new cabinet made up of politicians who backed the 'out vote'.......makes sense to me?
This message was last edited by BigAl2015 on 23/03/2016.
This message was last edited by BigAl2015 on 23/03/2016.
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There has been no mention of renegotiataion of any bi lateral agreements no mention of the UK joining EEA if the vote is out
We have no clear manifesto of what will happen if the vote is to leave and we really do not fully understand the detail of the agreement DC has made and how that will affect us all
Therefore
Any opinion that does not have rock solid facts is at best speculation and at worst scaremongering by either side
Nothing I have heard or read will make me change my mind I will vote to stay in and hope for a much more united and equal EU in the future
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Even the "out' believers must concede there will be negative economic consequences for Britain if they win the vote. Uncertainty will see to that. European companies that relocated to the UK are hardly likely to remain in the country without access to the single market.
Uncertainty kills financial markets. The years to!lowing a brexit vote will push the UK into recession and economic decline. That is not scaremongering its the prediction of most experts in the financial sector. Voters can of course ignore such people but to what end I ask myself?
If you want to know the future look at the past. Britain before they joined the EU. An economic basket case. The 'outs' seek to convince the voters that returning to those times will benefit all. I have not heard one single thing said by the brexit supporters that has an shread of credability.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 23/03/2016.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Just a few questions.....
Will the EU be weakened by a British exit, and if so, would this create market uncertainty for the euro?
Would this in turn encourage the EU to negotiate trading terms with Britain that would counter such uncertainty rather than cut off its nose to spite its face?
On the other hand, if Britain were to remain, is there any current clear manifesto of how the EU plan to better accommodate reform from within and become more democratic and accountable to its citizens, to better address inefficiencies in the existing system, to better protect its citizens with regard to property rights across member states and the rule of law, to address inequalities and unaccountability relating to large corporate tax avoidance and Banking regulation/compliance/bonus structures, to review the current treaty arrangements with regard to free movement of people, etc?
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You are entitled to vote whichever way suits you, but 'exagerations' do not help anyone that has not yet made up their mind:
1. There are 'negative economic consequences' before any general election, so we would expect the same in the lead up to the 'in/out' vote. If the vote is 'out' then for sure there will be a period of uncertainty that will affect the stock markets. This will not 'kill the finanancial market' EXAGERATION No 1.
2. Unless I am totally on another planet altogether there will still be access to the 'single market', so to say European companies that relocated to the UK are hardly likely to remain in the country without access to the single market. is EXAGERATION No 2.
3. The years to!lowing a brexit vote will push the UK into recession and economic decline, This is not FACT but a supposition made by those who wish to scare people into 'yes' vote. EXAGERATION No 3.
4. That is not scaremongering its the prediction of most experts in the financial sector. Voters can of course ignore such people but to what end I ask myself?
How many is 'most experts' and also as you say it is a prediction not FACT...EXAGERATION No 4.
5. EXAGERATION does not help anyone and certainly does not give the 'in voters' a shred of credibility.
If your mind is made up as it appears to be, then go and vote 'in' on the 23rd June...it's your vote , it's your decision, but don't spend time putting down others who have a different view.
This message was last edited by BigAl2015 on 23/03/2016.
This message was last edited by BigAl2015 on 23/03/2016.
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We non-resident property owners have enjoyed the protection of the European Council and the European Court of Justice in obtaining parity of treatment for CGT and IHT (albeit it took me 10 years to achieve it). If we leave the EU we will immediately lose that protection and once again be at the mercy of the Spanish Government who regard us as easy pickings.
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