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As you must be aware we are discussing the direct impact of EU policy on citizens lives from EU's inflexible policy which has failed to take into account all the factors identified, not about how the EU has addressed other issues.
I can identify from first hand experience the failure of MEPs ability to gain reform in the current structure given the existing treaty arrangements, so to imply that gaining access to MEPs is the point here is denial of a system beset by failures and lack of willingness to reform or willingness to reassess the need for far greater transient controls, better forward planning and assessment of impacts, adequate and realistic strategies for growth, diversification of economies with greater self reliance, adherence to stability mechanisms ( within realistic timeframes), taking into account all the wide diversity of factors associated with the different member states.
All of these impacts on UK citizens have been sadly ignored or underestimated by EU bureaucrats which ironically many other member states citizens recognise.
This appears merely an exercise now to ensure that the UK is scapegoated rather than address the very real underlying failures of the EU system.
But the saddest aspect of all, is that it doesn't have to be this way and the sooner certain EU bureaucrats recognise their intransigence and inflexibility has the power to further alienate citizens across Europe the better.
This message was last edited by ads on 15/12/2016.
This message was last edited by ads on 15/12/2016.
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Ads:
EU intransigence. What does that actually mean? You constantly make claims the EU is to blame for many woes in the world but the only plausible proof you keep offering is the word intransigence.
The economic crisis in southern EU member states was caused by the global recession and over borrowing. It was not the fault of the EU. I suppose you will also blame the EU for the Italian banking crisis and the Syrian refugee problem.
In fact the EU has prevented further mass migration from Syria and has put in place measures with Turkey to help the situation. It also bailed out Greece when it faced bankruptcy for the third time. It also stands ready to help Italy through its current problems.
You seem to think the EU is supposed to act like a federal government and adopt sweeping policies which make a tangible difference to people’s lives. It cannot.
What in fact the EU is in its current construction is an organization of 28 national governments who choose to pool their national sovereignty in a spirit of cooperation and solidarity with one another.
National governments make the difference to peoples ordinary lives. National governments run their own affairs under a frame work of laws and treaties every members national parliament has approved.
Where is this so called intransigence? The EU cannot act without agreements among its members. So instead of blaming the EU for intransigence blame the member states sovereign governments who screw up their economies, under fund public services and make daft political decisions.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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No Mickeyfinn I do not blame the EU for "all the woes in the world".
Please do not over generalise again.
Intransigent factors have been identified ad infinitum on this thread to date but it appears that you refuse to recognise them.
Neither do I expect for the EU to act as a federal state....just the opposite. They take decisions without adequate assessment of their impact on member states citizens. They take decisions turning a blind eye to uncomfortable realities. They take decisions without any willingness to adequately reassess their failures.
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Ads
I am not defending or supporoting MF. However,
.............They take decisions without adequate assessment of their impact on member states citizens. They take decisions turning a blind eye to uncomfortable realities. They take decisions without any willingness to adequately reassess their failures.
One could say exactly the same thing about the UK - this sort of behaviour is not exclusive to the workings of the EU and is probably replicated to just about every organisation across the globe be it politcial (govt, regional parlaiments, local councils etc), business, charities or sport (por and amatuer) where there are governing bodies, businesses, executive boards, committees etc.
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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ads.
They take decisions turning a blind eye to uncomfortable realities. They take decisions without any willingness to adequately reassess their failures.
'They' I assume you mean member states and their elected heads of government in qualified majority voting. Or are 'They' someone else or something else I'm not aware of.
Provide some examples please to support your claims if you wish to be taken seriously.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Except Tadd, the implications of the EU not addressing their failures or willingness to reform affects all 28 member states citizens........this has far wider implications and is sadly beset by far more difficulties for citizens from any one member state to gain accountability and reform to address the major impacts directly affecting them. Far easier to do so from within their own member state.
No matter how hard we would wish this to work, the EU isn't working in the best interests of its citizens (many UK citizens have been horrified by the way Greece Italy Spain Portugal have been dealt a bad hand in terms of managing their unemployment levels, and the only hope (this is not a choice as some have suggested) is for the young people to move away from their member state and families, stripping the member states in that process of their labour force without any due regard to their own member state's economy, let alone the recipient member state's economy and infrastructure) and the sooner we all recognise this uncomfortable reality, the sooner the bureaucrats can be made better accountable so that we can gain reform and gain a better working relationship between all members states, whether as an associate member, or whatever is deemed to work in the best interests of all EU citizens.
The EU have created (maybe unintentionally who knows) a failing system that is creating wide disillusionment amongst its citizens and far more worryingly greater division in that process.
This message was last edited by ads on 15/12/2016.
This message was last edited by ads on 15/12/2016.
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Ads, we need to break this down a bit as you are way beyond the rest of us on here. So in bitesized chunks might help.
"Not addressing their failures or willingness to reform". That is a very big statement, but what exactly do you mean. What failing on the part of the EU have they not addressed? When you speak of willingness to reform, what reform are you proposing that they should acede to?
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Ads
I am not sure you are missing my point but size is not the issue and you just as easily compare the plight of many member states against some high poverty areas in the UK and how the UK are dealing with thsi and how the citizens feel or are coping etc etc etc
Every concern you have posted about unemployment, people moving around to find work, funding the poorer areas who have debt, mis managment of funds etc etc can and does apply across the UK with the UK having the same problems, errors (and blame from the citizens) as you are inferring on the EU.
Is the UK willing to reform to protect its citiznes in poorer areas (I doubt it) and is doing no more or no less than the EU (same could be said for the USA, Canada, Australia,India etc etc).
Even Brexit will NOT bring the reforms the UK needs for all of its citizens - some exiters may think it will but how?
I do not think that anybody denies that reform is needed for the benefit of all citizens but that applies to the UK now and post brexit just as the EU and most other places
using your view
would it be far easier for say Scotland or Yorkshire or Mansfield or Broughton in Furness (which claims to be the smallest village in UK with ~ 530 residents) to gain accountability and reform to address the major impacts directly affecting them. Far easier to do so from within their own..........region.
This message was last edited by Tadd1966 on 15/12/2016.
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Tadd,
The UK govt has already been addressing benefit reforms but they were endeavouring to do this in a timely, sensitive and incentivising manner via the introduction of in- work benefits ( housing benefits and tax credits) without which poverty levels would have significantly increased, which in turn would have led to even greater inequality within our society, with all the consequential impact of social unrest that accompanies such insensitivity. So for some to suggest a speedier transition or even to remove such benefits for UK nationals is ignorant of the facts and implications on our society.
Likewise with ongoing health reforms so as to better accommodate an ageing population now living longer, and the growing problems of care in the community and mental health issues which are currently proving of major concern in the UK.
Likewise with ongoing funding of infrastructure projects associated with new schools and greater housing provision, all intended to improve the shortfalls and address the growing population. Funding that had been ongoing in various regions but had been redirected to accommodate swift inflow of migrants in areas badly affected.
But please review these ONGOING reforms and funding aongside the growing requirement to manage the county's debt and austerity measures following the Banking crisis, again in as timely a manner as was fair on those most disadvantaged in our society, and you start to recognise the impact from yet further strains from swift uncontrolled migration.
And this is where we come to Perrypower's query. Reform of EU policy. Taking freedom of movement....
Given all of the above ongoing UK govt reforms and funding you then have to comprehend the differences between Southern Member States and Eastern European member states pattern of migration and their differing impact on the UK.
Southern member states movements in the main have been driven by high unemployment, whereas Eastern member states has been driven by economic factors ( economic migrants). The difference being that the former was mainly young migrants whereas the latter has been mostly families.
It's important to recognise also that the Eastern European states unemployment ratios and debt levels were also far lower than the southern states and therefore they were not as susceptible to the impact following the Banking crisis.
But the impact on the UK from the swift inflow of Eastern European state migrants on the UK has been markedly different given they were mostly families, in so much as they have taken up in- work benefits, health benefits, housing provision, school places, child benefits and proliferated knock on effects in terms of lowering of wages, zero hours contracts, sadly impacted the prison services ( swift increases in EU inmates), etc. Their earning power being far greater than UK nationals and therefore not equally affected by lower wages etc.
So taking all of the above into consideration it was hardly surprising that UK citizens have expressed growing concerns/ disillusionment, and had hoped that the EU would factor in such realities and differentials into their freedom of movement rules when discussions took place with the UK gov, in order to seek a fair and flexible compromise. I.e take into account current ongoing reforms within the UK, the varying unemployment levels, debt levels and austerity requirements to manage debt, alongside the UK's ability to respond in a timely manner to large scale swift movements with fair comparisons to the member states from where they originated, in order to provide a far more flexible and responsive policy that also minimises division and opportunity to decimate ongoing cohesion between citizens and member states.
These are just some of the reforms/rules and transient more flexible controls required in terms of freedom of movement which in turn would temper division and intolerance.
This message was last edited by ads on 16/12/2016.
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Ads
The uk govt are trying but failing as are the eu ask some of the people on the poverty line in the uk
As with many they are cutting the wrong areas lowering taxes for the wealthy business etc
Once again just about all you say shows the same issues fir a 4 state union or a 28 state union
Reform us needed but you will never satisfy all
Again you bring up the subject of immigration and benefits the uk can't have it both ways and it has been saud many times the uk benefit system is a uk problem
An ageing population again a problem that is shared
The uk problems are the same as the eu problems and going it alone is not the answer for the uk or Scotland or Yorkshire
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Tadd,
With due respect you don't appear to have grasped my points with regard to a more level playing field in terms of analysis of country debt and impact from measures required to address debt ( in a timely manner), the need for tailored benefits for those on low incomes to be incentivised back into work, the wage differentials between member states, the need to limit uptake of benefits given background analysis of member states ( high/low unemployment levels, country debt, benefit levels etc).
I am not defending DC's policies and record to date, but Theresa May to date appears more willing to take account of those "disadvantaged" within our own society by endeavouring to incentivise them into work, to provide them hopefully with greater opportunity with the aim to become less reliant on state benefits ( but it takes time and understanding, never to lose sight of increasing poverty levels in that process), whilst also addressing sensitive issues relating to controls over large scale migration flows ( bearing in mind the differences identified across member states, and the need for greater analysis in that process). Only time will tell if this is just rhetoric or genuine attempt to better deal with those related to as " just managing"...
Best we leave it there, but once again, all the best to all for the festive season.
This message was last edited by ads on 16/12/2016.
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I am disappointed ads. For all your vitriol the substance remains the same. You blame EU immigration for UK poverty which is just not the case. Think of it this way. Schools have and will always be over crowded because we will not build one until we need at least two.
There has been no reform to in work benefits in the UK That is just a myth The poor are poor The lazy are lazy The elderly are elderly When I see the triple lock go and those savings plowed into helping young people into work then we can talk reform
Stop blaming migrants for UK mishandling of basic economics
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ads:
The figures for net migration to the UK of EU workers do not support your case ads. If you study the figures on the ONS web site the actual numbers are not statistically significant. The claims EU migration causes the social problems you describe are not justified. So is your clarion call of EU intransigence.
The real cause of UK social problems was government austerity and an attempt by Osborne and Cameron to force the UK to live within its means in the years running up to the referendum.
The cause and effect of those policies handed the leave campaign a gift with which to use. They created a myth in the minds of voters that EU migration was a problem not a positive benefit to the nation. Once that subliminal message gets planted it becomes almost impossible to change. It becomes a truth some of which you have taken and written on here.
Instead of getting your facts from Migration Watch study the ONS data with a fair and open mind. You may come to the conclusion the actual net migration numbers of EU citizens who come to the UK to work and contribute is actually a great positive benefit, not a negative and not statistically significant.
The decision has been taken the UK is leaving the EU so these discussions are academic. I believe the damage to the UK economy and status in the world will be considerable. In that event the people who began their campaign of deceit to achieve their aims I hope will be brought to account.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 16/12/2016.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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This is the second time I have asked this question ,it is looking highly unlikely that the EU is going to come to a exit agreement with the UK within 2 years ,so what happens if it takes longer for the EU to come to agreement is it business as usual or do they kick us out, this question has been asked by a so called illiterate poster ,so I am eagerly awaiting any answers.
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The answer windtalker is the protaganists involved will have to decide at the time, nobody really knows. Nor do they really know if the process can be stopped after article 50 is triggered. The Brexit deal when it's achieved will need to be ratified by all other 27 parliaments. If just one blocks it then its back to the drawing board.
Remember Camerons referendum prediction of 'a decade of uncertainty'.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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The pragmatic 'inners' keep on reminding the Brexiteers of what is the status quo relating to EU membership, whilst the mainly idealistic brexiteers see a far better future for the UK out of the union. My personal observation of 'inners' that I know is of mainly public sector employees/retirees, who think that they know everything about everything. I appreciate that this is a forum where certain members claim to be what they would wish to be, whereas most of the Brexiteers that I know are private sector/self employed (both current and retirees) who have experience of the real world. I am one of the latter who last relied on someone holding my hand was when I was at primary school.
I hold no fears of a UK not under the thumb of a EU super state, which has long made me feel very uncomfortable, what the 'inners' will fill their time with when we are free of the EU stranglehold is anyone's guess.
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Apparently when the UK formally triggers article 50 we are going to presented with a 50 billion £ invoice for services rendered ,presumably this invoice will be itemised before payment is sanctioned ,personally I don't think the British Tax payer is going to be happy to pay the 50 billion demand, when they see exactly what they are paying for in the form of a itemised invoice.
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The £50bn bill is for ongoing liability payments the UK has already committed itself to.
“We’re talking about payments to the existing budget that the UK already voted for, pensions of British citizens working at the EU. This is only things the UK has already committed itself to paying.”
EU spokesman.
Teresa May’s sad sense of isolation at the EU leaders summit yesterday is a perfect metaphor for the future of Britain.
There she was stood all alone in the crowded room looking around for a friendly face to chat with and there was none. All the other members turned their backs in a collective display of disapproval. Like a meeting in a lawyers room with a couple trying to reach a financial settlement after a divorce.
The cold face of political and economic isolation is Britain’s future as Japan’s banks prepare to leave the City and reality slowly dawns. I predict they may be the first in a long line of UK corporate Exiteers as it becomes clear no concessions and no quarter will be given by any EU nation after article 50 is triggered.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 16/12/2016.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Unfortunately Micky until we can convince the "they need us more than we need them" brigade of the reality of isolation that is exactly where we are headed. There will be cries from Brexiteers that are so called best friends in Europe have turned their backs on us and betrayed us despite how much we have done for them.
Some people just don't get it still. Remainers are fashioned as throwing their toys out of the prom by those people. Sadly they don't realise that their approach is to throw the baby out rather than the toys. This is all going to end so badly unless someone in Government comes to his/her senses.
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Micky,
I'm not in your league where polite etiquette is concerned, you obviously consider children's playground manners of turning their backs on what they do not agree with to be adult behaviour, how sad. 😢
This message was last edited by Destry on 16/12/2016.
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IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.
THANK YOU.
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