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I've heard the reforms the 'outs' are seeking but they are not realistic. They just want out. Ain't gonna happen,
Of course it ain't going to happen. The EU has no intention of ever democratising itself. It is scared of the people.
'Outers' are not just people who do not share the idea of a unified democratic Europe they are people that want democracy back one way or another. Many have given the EU 44 years to no avail.
Some want a democratic EU, some never wanted the EU at all, some have become disgusted by the waste and corruption, but all want democracy back.
We now have a chance to retrieve our democracy.
We should take it.
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I notice the argument that Cameron has got most of what he asked for is coming into play again.
The problem with this is he never asked for all that he said he was going to ask for. He asked for very little and got even less.
eg
He was:
to stop the European court of justice overruling UK criminal law by limiting its jurisdiction.
get Britain out of the EU social chapter on workers rights.
to reform of the EU’s common agricultural policy.
make EU jobseekers to have a job before coming to Britain.
and no child benefit for children overseas.
to name but a few.
He was also going to obtain treaty changes before a referendum.
The few 'concessions he has wrought may never be the subject of treaty changes and may well be overruled by the EU court of justice, the commisssion or simply not enacted after we have had our referendum.
So lets stop this claptrap about how well he has done.
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Thanks Mariedav.
This is proving quite an education.
Whatever happened to the relatively "simple" political system where citizens elect their leaders who are subsequently accountable to their electorate?
There seems to be a pattern developing where the more complex and large you make any system or organisation without adequate safeguards in place from the outset, the more susceptible it becomes to inefficiency and abuse of power.
Why therefore are the EU so unwilling to address these issues that affect accountability, both democratic and economic? It hardly inspires confidence and trust does it?
This message was last edited by ads on 14/03/2016.
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It amuses me how the 'IN's' feel that they have to keep on reminding themselves that they are definitely going to win by a decent percentage, when I am ever that certain of anything, which is a very rare event, I wouldn't feel the compulsion to keep on reminding myself of it. Actually they are bricking themselves because they know damned well that the vote is going to be very close run thing, I wonder if they expect the nasties to come for them if the 'OUT's' are victorious. 
_______________________
I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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I can't tell you how many people in the UK I've spoken to from a wide range of political persuasions, who have sadly lost trust in the ability of the EU to respond to a crisis, to be willing to establish better mechanisms whereby they can listen and respond to citizens' legitimate concerns , to be courageous and demonstrate a willingness to correct the system where it is failing.
But equally important is the need to defend the rule of law and establish effective mechanisms to gain greater accountability ( including ethical accountability) from the ever growing powerful financial institutions and large global corporations who appear to run roughshod over the " little man" without any conscience or concern for the damage they effect in that process.
There are far wider issues that need to be discussed that affect all citizens from all political persuasions in this scenario.
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The 'outs' are up to standard tricks again. Muzzle anyone who does not agree. I guess they feel it is okay to try to drag The Queen in even though she is and has always been non political, but if a politician who disagrees with Boris might say that Brexit would be bad their view is branded 'wholly fallacious'.
Running scared Boris?
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Hi Perrypower1
It is ok for others to have a different view than yours and at this stage no-one knows for sure what the result will be.
You have obviously made your mind up and that is ok, others have a view which in their opinion is just as valid as yours.
The 'outs' will have a specific view and the 'ins will have their own view, there are many examples of how a view can be 'coloured' one way or the other, I quote one of your views below:
"there is no plausible alternative to the EU. They have offered reforms that we asked for"
In many people's minds there are plausible alternatives to the EU, but your mind is set and you won't see it any other way. It is well known that it was never made clear (on purpose) what we were asking for, so if DC had come back and said the EU had agreed to put free salt & vinegar on your fish & chips he could have said he got what he asked for.
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That is not the point I have made BigAl. We are all entitled to our opinion but Boris Johnson is attempting to muzzle opinions he does not agree with which goes exactly contrary to your point.
He is the one who today has used the term "wholly fallacious" in regards to comments that Obama might make before they have even been made. When he was appointed the official in charge of free speech?
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pp1,
You've reached rock bottom and are showing signs of starting to dig, the basis of a referendum is having a choice, end of. 
_______________________
I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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As long as the choice is preapproved by Boris? Not in my country Hephaestus.
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perrypower1
We must all realise that where politicians are concerned 'if their lips are moving, they are lying', you are to validate your argument and bias are focusing on Boris Johnson, I make no case for Boris at all, he comes over as a bit of a buffoon but I am sure this cannot wholly be the case.
On the point of 'muzzling opinions', you make no mention of civil cervants only disclosing documents to the 'in crowd' and no point about not disclosing the true migration numbers, ie. how many vaild NI numbers are being used by migrants, if it is the case that it is too costly or time consuming to provide this information (pull the other one). why don't we start banding it about that the true number of migrants with valid NI numbers is 10million... how soon will figures then be produced to counter this claim?
This vote should be about issues not 'personalities'
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That is not the point I have made BigAl. We are all entitled to our opinion but Boris Johnson is attempting to muzzle opinions he does not agree with which goes exactly contrary to your point.
He is the one who today has used the term "wholly fallacious" in regards to comments that Obama might make before they have even been made. When he was appointed the official in charge of free speech?
Why the hell has Obama got any rights to say anything about what we the British want to do over the EU, what opinion could he come up with that concerns us, or him for that matter.
He should sort out his own MASSIVE American problems, in his own lands before he knows whats best for others, whats he trying to do? Do something good (in his mind only) before he's soon chucked out.
If we had taken notice of the American President at the time we would have not protected the Falklands.
Had we not taken notice of the American President at the time we would not have gone into Iraq.
This message was last edited by baz1946 on 14/03/2016.
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Baz
The UK is subject to public opinion both inside and outside the UK. Don't forget the Brits who are shouting about Trump. None of our business but we've got a lot to say about it and if somebody told us to mind our own business we wouldn't.
Obama has every right to voice his opinion. As do you. As do I. As long as Boris preapproves it. Bwahahaha
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The USA's liking of our EU membership is nothing new, Charles de Gaulle continued to veto our membership on the basis of allowing in the UK brought in with it the USA's special relationship with us, I recall that they were very pleased when we were allowed membership. As for folk taking any notice of Obama, I don't see anyone taking any notice of Cameron, Corbyn or Boris so why should he be any different?
Boris is playing his 'ace' card in respect of him wanting to be elected Tory leader, he would no doubt have been an 'IN' had Cameron and Osborne wanted 'OUT'. I urge every voter to cast their vote in line with their feelings and beliefs, whatever they may be.
_______________________
I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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For what it is worth it think the US President should keep out of UK politics, The pope should keep out of Americam politics and that it is pointless the PC brigade in the UK getting het up about Trump.
But it is clear that Obama is wrong. More integration in the EU would eventually mean that our seat on the UN security council will go to the EU. It is absolutely certain that the EU would be far less likly to vote with the US than the UK does.
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The UK is subject to public opinion both inside and outside the UK. Don't forget the Brits who are shouting about Trump. None of our business but we've got a lot to say about it and if somebody told us to mind our own business we wouldn't.
Obama has every right to voice his opinion. As do you. As do I. As long as Boris preapproves it. Bwahahaha
I think you will find the Brits shouting about Trump is only due to the way he is carrying on over his fight for power, you know, and I know who ever gets to the White House it would only concern us as to who would the yanks like to start another war with, as for how America is run we couldn't care less.
Obamas opinion would not stop at that, he would if he had the chance dip his toes into our affairs, and knowing how our politicians suck up to the yanks most likely they could go along with the requests.
Having an opinion on something is different to suggesting, advising and wanting you to do these things, which you might find Obama would do, given the chance to.
Boris could never stop Obamas opinions, free speech and all, anyway he is just a glove puppet for Americas government, Boris is wholly correct in basically saying to Obama..."Butt out".
Maybe Boris is wise enough to see that give them an inch and they will take a yard.
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We cannot avoid the reality that 30% (about £425 billion) of our Gilts alone are held by foreign investors. Their view on the UK has a big impact on our financing cost, the value of our currency, the strength of our stock market and the interest rates we pay for domestic loans and mortgages as well as inflation. We need to hear the opinions of those investors and the leaders of their countries...our economic health depends on it.
That does not mean we have to abide by their views, but you only need look at Argentina to see what happens when you tell foreign investors to get lost. They take their money and they go and leave you with no source of investment, hyper- inflation etc.
The UK is only an island geographically. Like it or not we are part of the rest of the world. What position do we want to hold in the world? We cannot be big on our own. We do not have the resources, the population, land mass, or capital and will lose our moral authority if we become isolationist.
I know I've said it before but I want Britian to be BIG not small.
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More integration in the EU would eventually mean that our seat on the UN security council will go to the EU
You're making that up, aren't you? How could the EU sit on the UN security council if it is not a Nation? Or is this the "we are very important British" syndrome and totally forgetting France is also on the security council.
Come on, keep it real.
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How could the EU sit on the UN security council if it is not a Nation?
Ever increasing integration?
Have no doubt a European superstate is still the main objective many.
As pointed out here, the EU is a member of the WTO.
I'm a Brexiter at the moment but I was originally in favour of the EEC/EU. It is the non democratic,destructive and invasive structure of the EU that is the problem. Given a top level democratic structure I could be in favour again, but at the moment the only foreseeable way to regain democracy and control of that which matters to us is by leaving.
Sorry France! -- If there were a USofE then there would be just be one seat on the security council.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 14/03/2016.
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I know I've said it before but I want Britian to be BIG not small.
The UK is the fourth or fifth richest nation in the world and has an influence way beyond it's size.
Just think we could be a small, quaint, insignificant, offshore island of the Europen superstate!
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