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So 51 % of a 50% turnout decides our and our children's future.
A tad better, I would venture, than Mr Heath deciding all on his own.
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To be fair to Ted Heath he advocated western European states joining a common trading market, not the monster that we have ended up with.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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'Brexit the video'
Link please. There seems to be several videos available.
I will not be able to watch anything with my slow connection here but may take a look when I get back to the UK.
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hep
you might want to re read heath's speech on europe as he had a much boigger vision - sadly many opposed him
http://www.cvce.eu/content/publication/2001/9/14/45bb74bd-554c-49d4-8212-9144ce2e8c1d/publishable_en.pdf
a small extract
An end to divisions which have stricken Europe for centuries. A beginning of another stage in the
construction of a new and greater Europe.
This is the task for our generation in Europe.”
So far we have failed but can achieve a better, bigger and greater europe that cares for all of its citizens depsite where they were born, colour of their skin, language they speak etc etc and provides a future full of growth ,opportunity, safety and well being for all
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Heph wrote.
To be fair to Ted Heath he advocated western European states joining a common trading market, not the monster that we have ended up with.
Cameron has achieved a UK opt out from any further integration process for the UK.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Micky, can you show me the statute of this?
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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This link details UK opt outs of Eu treaties achieved prior to Camerons negotiations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opt-outs_in_the_European_Union
Then recently Cameron achieved this:
Leaders of the other 27 member nations agreed to a deal that will see:
- a seven-year term for the emergency brake to restrict EU migrants in the UK claiming in-work benefits.
- child benefit payments indexed to the cost of living for children living outside the UK for all new arrivals to the UK, extending to all workers from 1 January 2020.
- any single non-eurozone country able to force a debate among EU leaders about ‘problem’ eurozone laws – though they will not have a veto.
- an unequivocal opt-out stating that EU treaty “references to ever-closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom”
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Is this by promise or statute micky?
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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It's a deal. ( I suspect you know that and are playing devils advocate.) A unianimous agreement that is legally water tight according to the Attorney General. It has to be ratified by the EU parliament.
Now you can claim as the out brigade have it's not worth the paper etc; etc.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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I’m sure Mr Heath knew exactly what he was doing. He just did not tell it all to the British Public. It might have been unpopular.
I, having lived in Belgium , knew all about the ‘European Project’. I voted in in ’75 but then I was young foolish and optimistic.
There is no excuse for anyone to be optimistic now, when we can see what an undemocratic, corrupt and un-reformable shambles it has become.
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Now you can claim as the out brigade have it's not worth the paper etc; etc.
I don't remember DC waving a piece of paper, so my suspicion is that it does not exist on paper, without a legally binding document I would not think this holds any water at all.
Politicians are not to be trusted and should always be questioned and asked for categoric proof in anything they do or say.
for example:
Christine Lagarde and Mark Carney both used the words 'Technicnal recession', scripted or what?, again our politicians wheeling out cronies disguised has independant.....dishonest to the core.
This message was last edited by BigAl2015 on 16/05/2016.
This message was last edited by BigAl2015 on 16/05/2016.
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Opt out
First three points are just tinkering at the edges.
I doubt if any will ever be ratified but the fourth point 'exemption from ever closer union' will go the same way as 'subsidiarity' even if it does.
Mr Cameron got nowhere near what he said he was going to get. Did not even ask for it. What he got was not worth having and will not be acted on even if it ever gets ratified (which is unlikely).
I'm not sure he can ever have properly read the history of '75 if he thought he could get away with the Wilson scam again.
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Mickeyfinn, are you living in the UK and witnessing the pressures on the educational system, the NHS system, the lack of housing and impact on prices and rentals in those areas affected by a large and unplanned influx of EU migrants, the effects on salaries for those jobs that have suffered a downward effect by the sudden unplanned influx of EU migrants during these recent years since the EU's open door policy was determined?
Sadly, none of theses highly concerning aspects appear to be improved by the list you itemised.
In those areas badly affected, teachers have been at their wits end to deal with language implications, increased class sizes, implications on meeting curriculum targets to cater for this growing and unplanned population growth, and that's not to mention the redirection of monies originally intended to upgrade infrastructure for the original population.
As for the NHS this unplanned influx of EU citizens that have chosen to live and work here, not only have to be accommodated ( further exacerbating the under supply of housing and affordable rental stock with all knock on effects) but they have impacted a health system already reeling from cutbacks as a consequence of the Banking crisis.
Neither should the psychology associated with a sudden unplanned influx over several years given all of the above be underestimated.
We have always prided ourselves on the integrated and inclusive nature and tolerance of our nation and these unplanned pressures are starting to impact.
Also signigicant costs associated with local authorities, police and legal systems in providing dual language information (26 languages in some Town Halls), translators, etc all need to be factored in.
The language from both camps is now becoming more extreme and exaggerated which sadly plays into the hands of those not so tolerant.
And all these effects are as a consequence of unplanned and increasing population growth which have the potential to be further exacerbated by EU expansion, especially now that the Govt have recently increased the living wage.
To many undecided voters these are REAL issues, not theory, and many appear to be confused and their consciences stretched by this decision whether to remain or not. Lack of national control with regard to EU migration and the first hand impact that many are witnessing and the effect on their society is proving incredibly challenging, and the worry is that this will continue unless the open door policy is reviewed.
This message was last edited by ads on 16/05/2016.
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The European project has not failed Britain. The country is far more prosperous, tolerant and multi-cultural than when it joined in 1973. Remember the state of the economy then? Remember the post war attitudes to change and foreigners?
Britain has more opt-outs than any other country. Further EU integration for Britain will not happen. It will not join the Euro or the Shengen zone.
The UK enjoys all the positive benefits of membership without any of the negatives as perceived by the Brixiteers. I understand the cynicism around politicians but it has been publically repeated many times that the deal Cameron achieved is legally binding. Not least by Juncker and Merkle.
It’s very difficult to argue against a negative and I read so much negativity on here about the EU it’s profoundly depressing. I suspect it may be a generational thing. Younger people are by nature more optimistic. As we travel through life disillusion creeps in because our expectations are difficult to satisfy.
Most human expectations are unrealistic anyway because we never take into account how world events can up scuttle everything our hopes and dreams are made on.
The EU soldiers on doing its best for its people in the same way most democratic governments do. It’s just we the people expect so much more. When it’s not delivered in the way we personally expect or unforseen problems result we become cynical and negative.
All the statistics I have read shows that the negatve impact of EU migration is grossly exggagrated. Other migration may impact certain areas because of wide cultural differences with the British. Leaving the EU will not make one jot of difference to that.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 16/05/2016.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Why is it that to make valid criticism is perceived as cynical and negative when in reality optimism relating to improving a system and demonstrating a willingness and humility to accept necessary reform is how we all make progress.
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micky, you're turning into a very bitter inner, a deal of this magnitude means something legal, this smells of 'the cheque is in the post', if the boot were on the other foot you would be demanding to see the proof.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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Criticism has a place when it's constructive. Saying all politicians are dishonest to the core, etc; etc has not.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Micky
What I said was that wheeling out cronies armed with a 'government script' pretending to be independant... WAS & IS dishonest to the core.
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Mark Carney was not ‘wheeled out by anyone’. He has to make a statement on the future direction of the economy every month. It’s called forward guidance. It would be odd indeed if the consequences of Brexit were not predicted as he sees it. The ECB president does the same thing.
Likewise Christine Lagarde has to give the IMF’s prediction to markets on the likely direction of the British economy after Brexit. It’s part of the normal function of the IMF.
These institutions are accountable, independent of any political group and cannot duck issues simply because they might be accused of siding with one view or another.
Obama may have had a political motive in saying what he did. I can accept that. However at the same time if he did not believe what he said was true, I don’t believe the president of the USA would say it.
If 27 EU leaders sit down and make agreements what part of that makes it unsafe or likely to be torn up?
The European Commission have accepted the legality of Cameron’s concessions as has the British Attorney General. It will be ratified and added to treaties in due course but that takes time. It’s cynical in the extreme to believe it will simply be torn up if the ‘remain’ vote wins the day.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Micky, did you believe Bill Clinton when he said 'I did not have sex with that woman', and Nixon's denial of the Watergate break in and it's subsequent cover up?
This message was last edited by Hephaestus on 16/05/2016.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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