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Mickeyfinn,
You state "The consequences of membership including the negatives were considered acceptable once for all the advantages it brought the nation. That has never actually changed. Perhaps the EU should have moved it’s position to accommodate dissent but in doing so would weaken what it stands for and lose credibility as an institution."
Negative impacts by definition are experienced firsthand after the event, not in advance, and to state that this club is unwilling to address the subsequent "negatives" for fear of losing credibility is an extraordinary statement.
This appears as an egotistical ideological mantra that pays scant regard to the citizens it was meant to serve I'm afraid.
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Perrypower,
You appear to be making the assumption that mutually beneficial outcomes cannot be achieved, so why is that?
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Micky
Being a democrat and accepting the will of the majority is what all democrats should do. And many do. It has been heartening to see the number of remain voters on TV since Mrs May's speech saying the same. I feel at last there is a good majority for pulling together, even many of those who originally wanted to pull in a different direction.
However, as a democrat, did not the erosion of democracy by the EU hierachy ever worry you?
Did not 40 years of failure to improve this stuation not ever diminish your enthusiasm?
Someone else on the board refers to the EUSSR. Did not rule by the commisars (sorry comissioners) ever worry you?
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ads- This appears as an egotistical ideological mantra that pays scant regard to the citizens it was meant to serve I'm afraid.
Well that remains a minority view among 500 million European peoples. Until a majority agrees with you the status quo will remain. Democracy working as it should. Democracy works both ways. The winners should respect the opposite view not try to ridicule it.
tteedd-I don’t think the EU is undemocratic. I do however accept it's elite heads should be elected by ALL the people they serve and not just the leaders of government and parliament. However it's not a deal breaker for me. The European Parliament is a democratic institution and oversees all legislation. In truth 'the hierarchy' as you call it has little real power on their own The council of ministers is where the deals are made with input from national government.
You should be more concerned with the happenings in Washington not Brussels. A potential dictator in power does not bode well for the world.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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No ads. I just want to know more about the contingency plans. Do you know what we will reinvent ourselves means?
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Mickeyfinn,
A democratically elected Parliament must respect that failures of policies and impact on the citizens it serves should be addressed within the responsibility of governance, and " saving face " should play no part in that scenario. All too often the tendency is for Parliamentarians to refuse to acknowledge and make good their failures which is why so many citizens are discontent and disillusioned with the establishment.
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Perrypower,
Contingency plans presumably are part of negotiations that each side appear content to conceal at this juncture, so if you ask the question of one side, you should equally ask the question of the other, and since you are unlikely to gain any answers, I suspect we will all have to be patient in this regard. ;)
P.s. I prefer to remain optimistic given both sides will ultimately have to recognise their responsibilities to their citizens if they wish to retain cohesion and mutually beneficial outcomes, but here's hoping they comprehend that reality and aren't too focused on unrealistic ideological aspirations.
This message was last edited by ads on 20/01/2017.
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The European Parliament is a democratic institution and oversees all legislation.
Oversees is the operative word here. The parliament cannot iniciate, revise or even throw out legislation. It is a rubber stamp.
In truth 'the hierarchy' as you call it has little real power on their own The council of ministers is where the deals are made with input from national government.
Exactly, the council is part of the hierachy and remote from and unrepresentative of the voters.
You should be more concerned with the happenings in Washington not Brussels. A potential dictator in power does not bode well for the world.
Come on Micky. You are being ridiculous. The new president is only just being installed. You may not like him but there is no evidence he has any dictatorial ambitions. The US is protected by the constitution, the house and the senate. I agree that I would not like to have a president. They do tend to have too much power, but the American constitution has stood for 250 years.
I am not an american citzen so have no say in the US. (I'd change the Russian leader [a real dictator] first).
I believe that many of our career politicians do not have the ability or experience to do the job. I belive that we need more MP's with Busisness, technology , engineering, medical and finance backgrounds. I would not allow anyone to stand for the UK parliament until they had paid 15 years tax and national insurance. I'm not overly enthused by Trump but, as he does not have a career political background and is a successful businessman, let us see how he gets on.
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With regard to abuses such as "illegals" abusing both the Spanish and UK systems ( and elsewhere for that matter) within the EU’s movement of people structure, I would ask the question is this a problem for member states to address, or is it a failure of the current EU system?
Should there not be mutually beneficial shared electronic monitoring and regulatory controls in place to act as preventative mechanisms in this regard, from the outset?
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tteed
I would not allow anyone to stand for the UK parliament until they had paid 15 years tax and national insurance.
How many of the current and past elected / unelected candidates for MP's would not qualify under this?
I suspect very few
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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And how many MEPS across Europe would fit this criteria?
This message was last edited by ads on 20/01/2017.
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ads
The problem of illegals in any member state (or any country) is not just a result of movement of people many citizens of individual states do the same when it comes to working illegaly, under the radar, claiming benefits illegally and not paying taxes NI etc
How govts clamp down on their own citizens as well as immigrants is a difficult call but it should happen more
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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ads,
An honours graduate would be in their 40's in order to fit your criteria, Churchill would never have run for Oldham aged 26 and William Pitt the Younger would never have been pm aged 24, the guys who won The Battle of Britain would also have been far too young.
Your suggestion is very badly flawed, if they are old enough to vote they are old enough to stand for parliament, however I can't imagine many 18 year olds being selected to stand.
This message was last edited by Destry on 20/01/2017.
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IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.
THANK YOU.
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Destry
I think it was tteed who had the original idea ads added MEP's
Good points though
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Cheers Tadd,
So it was, my apologies to ads
_______________________
IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.
THANK YOU.
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ads-Should there not be mutually beneficial shared electronic monitoring and regulatory controls in place to act as preventative mechanisms in this regard, from the outset?
There are already such controls in place but Europe is a liberal democracy not a police state. A section of the population will always operate under the radar. It's about your own individual moral compass in the end not heavy handed big brother policing by governments. Isn't that what Brexiteers moan about?
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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tteedd - I said Trump has the potential for dictatorship I did not say he would suceed. There is a difference. You can get an even money bet at the bookies betting on his impeachment within two years.
Trump I believe will fail because his policies and outlook are protectionist in a global world. You cannot turn back the clock and prosper. It's all been tried before. America used to be isolationists to the core and look what happened. Pearl Harbour and WW11.
Americans can vote Trump from office in four years, Brexit is forever. At least on the terms Britain has now.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 20/01/2017.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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There was an American writer on the radio this morning talking about ordinary American's perception of Trump. What really got to him was a throw away line by a store keeper, this was "well at least we will be able to wish each other Happy Christmas instead of Happy Holliday". It appears that the Obama presidency brought with it a plethora of PC suggestions that were taken on board by the liberal media, sounds like Blairism doesn't it?
_______________________
IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.
THANK YOU.
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Dear Followers
As I walk around town I cannot help but draw parralels in so much as I here all these strange foreign languages been spoken by single mothers with half a dozen kids and drunken males in shellsuits stumbling of the kerbs is it Russian French German Spanish it all sounds like GREEK to me the Polish Supermarkets etc and I wonder that Spain, Germany France and many other countries are thinking the same thing" I wonder if they will be here next year or gone bact to whenst they come "much like the Spanish may be thinking the same thing about the Brits they must be SURELY they are only HUMAN TOO.
One things for sure significant changes are on the way here and across the World and it reminds me of the old saying He who fails to Plan Plans To Fail so assume all EXPATS that the what the WORSE scenario could be for you I DID this and moved BACK ok I have POORER weather but thats all I miss
Live Long And Prosper
Hugh xx
This message was last edited by hughjardon on 20/01/2017.
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Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK
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An honours graduate would be in their 40's in order to fit your criteria, Churchill would never have run for Oldham aged 26 and William Pitt the Younger would never have been pm aged 24, the guys who won The Battle of Britain would also have been far too young.
Your suggestion is very badly flawed, if they are old enough to vote they are old enough to stand for parliament, however I can't imagine many 18 year olds being selected to stand.
Honours or not, most get their first degree at 21. That would make it 36. But, if they stay in academia and get a Masters then a PHD (without being paid) you would probably be right.
Perhaps you could say it is up to the electorate to judge their experience. The trouble is some would vote for a one legged pig if it had the right rosette on.
William Pitt and even Winston Churchill were of a different age where there was not universal sufferage and it was your 'position in society' that mattered. Those days have gone thank god. I would have no problem with active service being a qualification. This would cover Churchill and the B of Britain pilots mentioned.
What sticks in my craw is those who go to Uni, get involved in Uni politics, become re-searchers and then MP's with no real idea of how the world works.
As for 18. I did not get the vote until 21. I had been interested in politics since thirteen and judge myself only just aware enough at that age. Most of my contemporaries did not have a clue. The idea of dropping the age to 16 is ridiculous.
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