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Robert -This will influence any legislature for the better, but by leaving, we will be a neighbour to a reckless organisation that makes bad decisions, which may also influence our position on the world stage.
I don't think you need fear that. The current crop of EU political leaders are in my view a stable bunch unlikely to move to extremes.
The coming elections in France, Holland and Germany will I believe clearly be a vote against extremes despite what popular media pretend. That's one of the stength of real democracy, it usually sees off the extremists.
Europe as a whole is a pillar of stability in an uncertain world. There are I accept serious economic problems to solve, many created by the single currency. However if the political will of solidarity prevails, as I believe it will, solutions will be found.
The loss of Britain is a blow but it's not fatal as some would have you believe. Europe is much stronger than that. Every set back, every difficulty overcome, as in your own personal life strengthens resolve.
The world is a globalised economy. Individual countries will only struggle to survive and prosper outside major power blocks. The UK is anxious to become aligned to the USA and maybe that's the future for the nation but Europe will move forward whatever direction the UK follows.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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post duplicated
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 25/02/2017.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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The coming elections in France, Holland and Germany will I believe clearly be a vote against extremes despite what popular media pretend. That's one of the stength of real democracy, it usually sees off the extremists.
Of course Mickey
Thats what Donald Trump elected.
Got Nigel Farages UKIP party 14% of the popular vote, far more votes than the SNP or Lib Dems for instance at the last UK general election.
Creates difficult to manage European coalitions in many EU nations due to the rise in popularity for parties both to left and right and away from traditionalism.
Watch this space.
Tariffs on Beaujoais Noveau??
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Quite right, some media sources are forecasting over 10 million EU migrants arriving in the UK before BREXIT is completed.
How does the UK government deal with that?.
There was some talk on newsnight about a week ago that the cut off date for coming and retaining EU citizenship dirived rights might be the day article 50 is actioned.
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European political coalitions and domestic political systems in Europe should ensure extremes are kept at arm’s length from power.
UKIP has had its day and are a busted flush. Trump will eventually implode as his support grows tired of his mistakes. The USA is not Europe.
The thing about poplarism is it has no answers for the problems of the age. It knows what it doesn’t like but has no workable solutions to offer. Its rise is based solely on a connection with a natural fear and frustration the electorate feel to the consequences of wars and terrorism.
The National Socialist Party did something similar in the thirties. The comparisons are not that far-fetched. The difference is people were starving then and had little hope of a better life.
Now we have a European union of nations that have delivered prosperity, peace and hope for its people. That’s a powerful obstructive obstacle to extremes.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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my previous thread about EU members making bad decisions was not about extremists within the EU being elected and going on to make bad legislature through their beliefs, it was more an observation that many EU directives and legislature are ill thought out and are voted into EU law without enough consideration for all member states. There is currently 28 member states and one size certainly will not fit all. It is this recklessness i refer to , not the loonies that think if elected they will get their way, as with the other member states also having a vote, such extreme proposals from such extreme people will never get past ratification stage.
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The National Socialist Party did something similar in the thirties. The comparisons are not that far-fetched. The difference is people were starving then and had little hope of a better life.
Now we have a European union of nations that have delivered prosperity, peace and hope for its people.
Micky
The comparison is not only far fetched it is stretching incredulity to the limit. There is no comparison.
For a start 'populism' is a name made up by the PC liberal media in order to lump together everything they do not understand, not a political party. The EU is much more like National Socialism in that it shares a dislike for letting the people have their say.
As for the last sentence above you are back in La La land again the EU has done none of the things you mention.
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speaking of prosperity, does anyone know if the EU has ever filed its accounts in recent years as all countries/unions are supposed to? i know some years ago it was stated that the EU had not furnished accounts for TEN years! Just what is going on, and why do all the good people of the EU put up with such shoddy treatment?
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speaking of prosperity, does anyone know if the EU has ever filed its accounts in recent years as all countries/unions are supposed to? i know some years ago it was stated that the EU had not furnished accounts for TEN years! Just what is going on, and why do all the good people of the EU put up with such shoddy treatment?
Load of rot.
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Mariedav, your comment "load of rot" is not unexpected by me, as someone had to say something of the like as a protest against my thread contribution. What would be a much wiser, balanced opinion would be to look into my quote and find out the true facts, and if the claim is true. Dont just go along with anything like a lost sheep, which most people do, just as you seem to. If that was the case and everyone in the UK made proper enquiries before they voted maybe the outcome might have been different?
https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditors-sign-eu-budget/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36276175
http://www.ukip.org/eu_accounts_fail_audit_for_19th_year_in_a_row#
There are three links to be going on with, they seem to say its an urban myth, but then go on to say that there is documented wrong doing, so whats to believe?
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This has been gone over and over and it is, as said, a load of rot. EU accounts are audited, albeit by the EU group of auditors (same way as UK government departments are audited by government auditors) and they have been signed off every year. So your biased statement that they haven't is, frankly, the load of rot I said.
You put a string of words, not a link, and one of them was the BBC. Well, here's another BBC one
BBC EU audits
Putting TEN years in capitals does not make it true. They have been presented. OK, they say an error of 0.2% has been flagged up. Now look at the HMRC budget, about 4 times the EU budget, with a percentage of error and fraud of 4.4%. Or the DWP, those social and welfare people in UK with a budget approaching 10 times that of the EU, and they have a fraud and error percentage of 2.2%. So where's the outrage and putting up of shoddy treatment about that?
Or how about this link
Or this one?
Or even this one?
Saying the accounts haven't been presented is an out and out lie.
So you can see why I put rot. Because it is.
Oh, and this whole thread is becoming ridiculous. There is nothing that has not been said before and I hoped, like the mythical oozlum bird, it would go round and round and finally disappear where the sun don't shine. It's simply people making things up to fit their biased point of view (from both sides) and should be put to death. Hopefully the UK will have some grown ups doing the negotiations coming up rather than sit there and slag each other which this thread has degenerated into.
This message was last edited by mariedav on 26/02/2017.
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Moving on...
Mickeyfinn,
You observed “The policy purpose of free movement and by that I mean access to richer nations by the people of poorer ones has, it appears, to have functioned effectively.”
Effectively???
What this clinical observation fails to take into account is twofold.
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That it depends upon good management and comprehension of the complex differences between member states with realistic achievable timeframes so as to minimise unrest.
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It requires humility, to demonstrate a willingness to monitor and review progress but with equal resolve to adapt policy decisions wherever required, so as to maximise cohesion between citizens and member states.
Robert,
You observed with regard to striving for mutually beneficial solutions, “The problem with humanity is many do not think this way, and their way is more , "if they have it why shouldnt i?" So i really dont see much changing in that respect.”
We'll I for one, and I suspect many others don't look upon humanity in that negative fashion, and prefer to think that such arrogant and selfish traits are far outweighed in the western world by those who strive for more positive mutually beneficial outcomes that lead to a happier more civilised stable co-existence.
Many of those who demonstrate such traits appear to relish in a confrontational approach, which only alienates and divides. Somewhat hypocritical for a union that aspires to live in harmony and peace isn't it?
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tteedd – Wiki defines poplarism thus:( not 'PC liberal media' whoever they are)
Populism is a political doctrine that proposes that the common people are exploited by a privileged elite, and which seeks to resolve this. The underlying ideology of populists can be left, right, or center.
The National Socialist Party in German during the thirties believed ordinary people were being exploited by a Jewish elite. So there are comparisons. Of course Hitler went on to become the exploiter as we all know.
That begs the question how long would it take any of the current crop of populists to morph into dictatorship if they ever obtained power?
I note Trump has banned some sections of the press corps he does not like this week from The White House. The first move of any dictator is to muzzle the press.
ads - It requires humility, to demonstrate a willingness to monitor and review progress but with equal resolve to adapt policy decisions wherever required, so as to maximise cohesion between citizens and member states.
Yes the job of member state governments which they often fail so to do. Blame they players not the structure.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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ariedav
Oh, and this whole thread is becoming ridiculous. There is nothing that has not been said before and I hoped, like the mythical oozlum bird, it would go round and round and finally disappear where the sun don't shine. It's simply people making things up to fit their biased point of view (from both sides) and should be put to death. Hopefully the UK will have some grown ups doing the negotiations coming up rather than sit there and slag each other which this thread has degenerated into.
Great summary - ths stherad really has ran it course
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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On a positive note  ....
Many of the issues identified and debated on this thread have been relevant to Brexit, and in the main have helped to comprehend both the psyche and sometimes the wider intellectual analysis of the issues at stake, even if you don't always agree with them!
For that alone, I have been grateful to have the opportunity to learn and contibute in this process, but perhaps what has become clear is that mutually beneficial solutions will only be achieved by a willingness to comprehend the wider perspectives from both sides of the debate.
For that alone , I thank EOS! 
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ads
Yes it has been an experience and enlightning for us all but the repetitivenesss and going round in circles is now getting tedious
Maybe it is time to wait until we start seeing real action and real facts once the negoatiations start and actual decicions made instead of speculation, guesswork (educated or not) and (dare I say it) scareongering from all points of view
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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I agree, this thread is well past it’s shelf life and has nothing new to offer. It is distorting what EOS is all about. EOS has over 260,000 visitors per month and I am sure they are looking for something more interesting than this constant addictive bickering thread only supported by a few bored members. Would Lord Sugar say "I like this idea based on BREXIT personal insults and arguments’’.
This message was last edited by potblack on 26/02/2017.
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NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER: A mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others.
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Yes Tadd,
I agree, important to return to the thread as new issues arise and require further analysis.
Bye for now!
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It is rather surprising the thread has run so long. I think it reflects in a small way, whatever your view, the level of genuine deep concern Brexit will have on the future direction of Europe and Britain.
I have learned something from the thread about peoples general attitudes toward British society and other people. Everyone has a motive for offering their opinions and every opinion unless it’s disingenuous is valid and worth reading.
I don’t think discussion if it’s reasonable can ever be negative. Perhaps that is just a symptom of frustration toward the subject matter. I mean it can always be just ignored.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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