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The subject of free movement and foreigners from the EU claiming the DSS/NHS in the UK without paying a penny into to system has been discussed many times on this thread ....according to EU rule's the host country must provide the same benefits that are on offer to their own citizens... to EU citizens ,Mr Cameron pre Brexit went over to the EU with a army of Lawyer's and could not convince them that the so called free movement had turned into mass migration into the UK and was putting a stress on public services and causing discontent in the UK population .....the answer he got from the EU was rules are rules and the EU will not allow any changes until your system collapses and as a member of the block your country must accept them or leave .....this dictation prove to the majority of the UK population that they are no longer in control of the UK ...what part of this statement do the remainers not understand.
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Tadd
To quote a slur does not prove anything.
I suggest you do some reading and find out about the ladies methodist roots and find out why her support for aparthied would be unthinkable in her moral code. Admittably she made decisions that annoyed activists. But not doing things that other people want is no proof of a persons moral stance. The decisions she made were because her reading of what was good for Britain, good for South Africa and furthered our interest were different from what the activists wanted.
Maggies biggest faults were in conceeding increasing power to the EU and letting Carrington start a process that put a thug and murderer in charge in Zimbabwe.
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Ads the weblink you have posted does indeed give details regarding movement and residence within member countries and the EU directive relating to that agreement. What it does not mention or define is the right for a member country to opt out of the mentioned agreement, where relating to "Free Movement". The UK as i stated previously opted out of the directive, just as the UK opted out of the single market monetary system, which is why we still trade in Pounds and NOT Euros. Everyone seems to be missing the whole point of having a veto clause which we have excercised with relation to the Schengen agreement relating to "Free Movement", and so we do not have an uncontrolled border.
That being said we DO participate in the directive which member states agreed to regarding resettlement and residence of EU citizens. This means once a person ARRIVES in the UK, if they are an EU citizen we do not turn them away, but before this happens they first have to get into the country, which they cannot do as easily as between other member countries due to the fact our border is NOT an open door allowing "Free Movement" a completely different matter to having the right to reside and due to our non participation in the Schengen Agreement.
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The answer that David Cameron got from the EU regarding free movement and EU citizens claiming from the UK DSS was the EU would only allow any changes to the EU rule's when UK system completely breaksdown...... this is not how you run a service whatever service you offer must be alterd and maintained with modernization at any given time otherwise you whole system collapses ( just like the UK NHS has collapsed ). If Juncker was in charge of a large Organization the likes of Ford's or a Nuclear power station he would have been sacked for making that statement.
This message was last edited by windtalker on 25/02/2017.
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Robert the EU system states
"The country where you claim benefits must take into account all the periods you've worked or all the contributions you've paid in other EU countries as if you'd been covered in that country all along."
What it does not appear to do, however, is factor in the differentials of benefit value which currently acts as pull factors for those who want to work in the UK, and the UK does not appear to be allowed to differentiate between the two " entitlements" to act as fair controls.
The EU bureaucrats ( during negotiations) appear to have purposefully denied the UK from regaining adequate control over these form of pull factors and recognise the economic impact and impact on the wider infrastructure of the UK, given the swift and large-scale movements of EU citizens that have taken place , I.e. what the Canadian agreement refers to as "irregular migration trends”.
My point being that, so long as EU bureaucrats remain intransigent to recognise and fairly respond to these uncomfortable realities ( which have played a major part, alongside other factors of course that led to the vote to Brexit), without fairly taking into account these many differentials, then the system as it currently stands will continue to place growing ( some would suggest intolerable) pressures on the UK.
The sad aspect is that the EU Parliamentarians are starting to recognise this, since the vote to Brexit, but the EU Commission appears to continue with its intransigent approach.
This is no way to work “ in harmony” and as we can see on this thread alone, sadly has led to division and frustration between citizens.
But it doesn't have to be this way if only the EU bureaucrats would recognise the need for better transient controls to be employed, wherever “irregular migration trends” have been identified.
Sadly this failure appears to be leading to unnecessary breakdown of cohesion and requires urgent reform.
This message was last edited by ads on 25/02/2017.
This message was last edited by ads on 25/02/2017.
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Ads i can agree with what you say, but for your remark we need better "transient "controls which would be affected by , again, the Schengen agreement allowing this within the EU, and this is not the case, we need better Rights To Reside which currently we can do nothing about as we cannot vary our regulations regarding this, as we are tied to EU guidelines which all member states must abide by. Once the UK is free of the EU, Government will then have the ability to vary these regulations as there will only be UK law, and no EU dictact.
To a certain extent i have found when talking to Polish that are working in the UK they are somewhat surprised with the cost of living in the UK, and have told me that if they had realised the increased cost of just existing compared to Poland, they would not have bothered in the first place coming here. It is a pity they do not seem to research things here before they roll up on our shores. (This sounds very descriminatory/racist which it is not, i am all for diversity, but not a total takeover).
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My point re need for EU change Robert is that within any ongoing negotiations to trade with EU we need to ensure that irregular migration trends are catered for, and since any market access appears to rely upon current EU dictats, this appears a current stumbling block if not carefully included in any trade negotiations.
Hopefully sensible Parliamentarians will recognise mutual benefits to ensure citizens current and future needs are addressed in a fair and harmonious fashion ( without further division and alienation that leads to lack of cohesion in Europe).
P.s. I have great respect for Polish citizens who in the main appear hard working and law abiding, but the current system is at fault and needs reforming to address the issues identified in this thread in a fair and workable fashion, rather than in an ideological dictatorial adversarial and unrealistic manner.
This message was last edited by ads on 25/02/2017.
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Quite right, some media sources are forecasting over 10 million EU migrants arriving in the UK before BREXIT is completed.
How does the UK government deal with that?.
_______________________
NO SNIDE COMMENTS PLEASE. STICK TO THE THREAD SUBJECT.
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Ads, to me it is fairly obvious such needs when we negotiate leaving are going to have to be adressed it is clear to right thinking folk that this is going to be the case, as our withdrawl from the EU has complicated implications. Implications i fear the greater amount of the leave camp did not consider when they voted out. I have the suspicion a fair amount of the out camp voted out without considering the greater situation post EU. The sort of person who waves their Little England flag, and spouts about the Poles/Pakistanis/Indians, and just about any "Johnny Foreigner." They forget as soon as we leave these shores, in their case for their boozy, loud mouthed holiday in Benidorm, they themselves then become a foreigner on foreign shores. Maybe as we leave the EU the government should make a law that a UK resident can not leave our country without good reason? These are the sort of person who terms themselves as "normal" what is "normal"? there is in reality no such thing the human race has a massive diversity, the only normal is we are all Homo Sapien, anything else is just a subclassification.
This type of person has bulked out the vote to leave, and is the sort of person who has given the outcome very little consideration, and i personally fear that leaving could well result in a situation that is worse than the one we have been in for the last forty years.
Viva la revolution!
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Apparently the remain camp said this type of mass emigration is good for the UK can anyone on hear explain that statement just to give you a few pointers the UK has no House's the NHS can't afford to treat them and the DSS benefits scheme just can't cope with the free hand outs.
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Elsie, TEN MILLION??? Do you really believe such scaremongering? the news actually said in the last few days that gross migration to the UK has actually DROPPED since the Brexit vote. I do not see it rising to the stupid estimate you quote, which as Donald Trump (bless him) calls Fake News. If you wish to believe such falsehoods, you have been took. Also i dont see it rising wildly as any potential Immigrant, just as us Residents dont know what post Brexit holds for an inhabitant of the UK, whereas in the EU they know exactly where their residence stands and the UK leaving is not likely to be causing those regulations to change. I would feel safer where i was, not stepping out of the frying pan into the fire.
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Windtalker, you forgot to mention the immense strain on schools and the education system also.
This message was last edited by robertt8696 on 25/02/2017.
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One thing I will say about this mass migration into the UK from the EU is that it is pushing up the price of housing in the UK .......in the area I live in you can ask what you want for a house and sell it straight away the problem is that you will not be able to buy another one because of the massive shortage of properties.
Robert 8696 you got the strain on education and schools wrong the majority of unskilled workers from eastern Europe leave the kids and wife in the home country take a low paid job in the UK and have that take home pay made up in DSS benefits and then send that money back to the home country.what's going on hear beat's me maybe someone has the answer .
This message was last edited by windtalker on 25/02/2017.
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The way of dealing with failure of the EU to reform with regard to irregular migration patterns of this nature is not to ignore it in the hope that reform will happen " eventually " ( we all know how long reform takes given the EU structure) and suffer the many consequences that leads to proliferation of division and unrest in the interim, but to have the courage to highlight it and strive for mutually acceptable solutions in that process.
As for generalisations with regard to the leave voters, I suspect, given the wide diversity of voting patterns across the UK, that there were many of equal number who voted with knowledge and grave genuine concerns from first hand experience and with equal concern to the apparent intransigence of EU bureaucrats as demonstrated during the negotiating process, by their failure to recognise ( or believe) the growing economic and social pressures, etc, on the UK from these irregular swift large scale migration flows that were starting to impact cohesion.
IMHO, to ignore this major failure would be a disservice to all citizens and ironically goes against all fair minded principles. Perhaps Parliamentarians are at last recognising this uncomfortable reality.
Only time will tell but we need to find common ground now and all strive for mutually beneficial solutions.
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" all strive for mutually beneficial solutions." Ads. Can you really see that happening post brexit in the UK? or anywhere for that matter? The problem with humanity is many do not think this way, and their way is more , "if they have it why shouldnt i?" So i really dont see much changing in that respect.
Windtalker, the immigrants that do this , send money back home was shown by a Romainian doing just that on a benefits cheat programme the other day. He brought his youngest to the UK for the sole intent of showing him in the jobcentre to get him added to his claim in the UK. He seemed to think it would raise his claim from around £20,000 to £25,000 (!) and the child was going straight back to Romainia with his mother. The benefit was being used to modernise and rebuild his Romanian house! But there are equally as many immigrants who cannot bear to be separated from their offspring, and who bring them here for the improved living standard and a better education than the parent country, exactly what many asians and carribeans did in the late fifties and sixties. Many came here due to the labour shortage and brought their entire family, Brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers and other close relatives.In those days we needed people to fill job positions, but that was post war, and nowadays opportunities are not so abundant.
So, Ads, i hear what you say, but there is still a strain on education and the education budget, just as much as any other state service.
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Wrong thread removed.
This message was last edited by windtalker on 25/02/2017.
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*edited out thread which was an answer to windtalkers removed comment*
This message was last edited by robertt8696 on 25/02/2017.
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Ads- The way of dealing with failure of the EU to reform with regard to irregular migration patterns of this nature is not to ignore it in the hope that reform will happen.
If you believe in the fundamental principles of the EU as I do.ie: solidarity, fraternity and shared development between member nations then ‘irregular migration patterns’ are by design not a consequence of any failure.
The policy purpose of free movement and by that I mean access to richer nations by the people of poorer ones has it appears to have functioned effectively.
Britain knew quite well the implications of signing the treaty that created this principle. It gained some opt outs eventually to stage emigration from Romania and Bulgaria which have now expired. Presumably the British felt at the time that the disadvantages were worth the gains.
Ads believes the EU requires reform but in reality it’s the founding principles and subsequent treaties which give the political union meaning and values to a majority of ordinary Europeans.
In many ways I am happy the UK is leaving and sad at the same time. Glad because the constant semi-detached UK will no longer be attempting to weaken the union. Sad because the people of Britain have failed to see what a giant cause for peace and stability in the world the EU represents.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Mickey, by and large i agree with what you say, but i take exception where you state," Glad because the constant semi-detached UK will no longer be attempting to weaken the union." This is exactly why i think we should have voted to stay, as the only way the EU as an organisation is going to improve is for all participating nations to give reasoned objections, as well as endorsements to enable other members to evaluate such information and come to a more informed verdict on what they are enforcing through new legislature. This will influence any legislature for the better, but by leaving, we will be a neighbour to a reckless organisation that makes bad decisions, which may also influence our position on the world stage. I do not recall any other EU member making as many waves as the UK has over the years, so the EU's bad rule continues, and is why the UK electorate has voted to leave.
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