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tenerife
Are you sure?
The current WTO deals are agreed by the EU for the EU member states and when the UK leaves the EU they will no longer be part of that agreement - or is this another one that needs negotaiting and nobody has thought about
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Tadd ,
Have you actually read what i've written? WTO rules would apply after Brexit, while we're negotiating trade deals.
This message was last edited by tenerife on 08/12/2016.
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tenerife
yesI did read
we'll simply trade with them under WTO rules.
how do you know the UK could trade under these WTO rules? Is it that simple?
I don't know, which is why I am asking you how do you know this for certain?
Will the UK still be a signatory, after brexit, to these current WTO rules agreed with the EU?
Are the WTO trading rules open to every country?
If so how can the UK get a better deal than what they say the EU has? Are they different for EU and non EU?
I would guess probably as the UK exiters are claiming they can get a better deal under the WTO than the EU has got!!!!!
So which way is it?
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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WTO rules would apply after Brexit, while we're negotiating trade deals.
How so? The UK is only a WTO member because of it's EU membership status. During negotiations that will remain I accept. After the date of Brexit in 18 months time legally Britain will have to apply to rejoin the WTO. That may be a simple process and there again it may not. Brexiteers cannot guarantee it would.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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It seems that we can have FTAs before Brexit, although they can't come into force until after we exit. I'm sure the EU will continue to argue the toss.
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Tadd,
How do we trade with other counties at the moment?
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just did a quick search and although the EU is a member of the WTO so are all of the 28 member states
So we could trade under WTO rules as tenerife mentioned
Under WTO ruels the EU could not "punish" the Uk by having different tariffis etc. any trading without a specific trade agreement has to be the same as with other non EU countries without a trade agreement (at least that is what I think it said )
All as clear as mud just like the UK brexit plans and any other UK govt plans for the future of the UK
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Micky
Ah you have found a name to string them together!
I prefer straight dictionary quotations, that way I know exactly what a populist and hence populism is. Seems to me the word has entered the jargon with all the other ..... isms and .......ists and can mean whatever the proponent wants it to mean.
The fact that you put Trump, Farage and Putin in the same bucket would re-inforce my case.
Trump and Farage may well be populists (although Trump has a very funny way of going about it and Farage does not seem to bend his views in order to become popular). Putin may be popular in Russia but he is certainly not a populist according to the dictionary. Putin is popular in Russia because the Russian media is now, again, completely government controlled and only puts one viewpoint. The country never became democratic enough for the people to get into the habit of being critical.
I sense that much of the EU would like to be in Putin's position. They try hard enough with their propaganda. Using our money to tell us how good for us they are. Fortunately we have a free press.
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Precisely Tadd
WTO rules are there to ensure ALL countries can trade with each other, whether there is an existing trade agreement or not.
No one has to apply to trade under WTO, and there are restrictions on tariffs.
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https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/fact2_e.htm
Almost sounds like a larger EU, in which the world participates.
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All EU nations are dually represented in WTO.
The 28 states of the European Union are dually represented, as the EU is a full member of the organization. Non-sovereignautonomous entities of member states are eligible for full membership in the WTO provided that they have a separate customs territory with full autonomy in the conduct of their external commercial relations.
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Let's not get over excited about WTO trading it is not the holy grail many are claiming
The UK will be subject to trade tariffs when trading with EU and the buyers and sellers will use the relevant incoterms to ensure the UK pays all trade tariffs
As many non EU countries do now
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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It was the BBC who first coined the word Populism as a form of shorthand to describe a political manifestation sweeping first Europe and now the US. It is in fact a form of anti-establishment protest movement from both the right and the left of the political spectrum.
Within the new reality of an embattled liberal democracy, it is important to note that a populist radical right or left candidate has still not won a true electoral majority in any established democracy in the postwar era.
Even Trump was, by American standards, handsomely defeated by Hillary Clinton in the popular vote. She actually received 2 million more votes than Trump but because of their electorate college system she lost the Presidency.
The Brexit referendum because of its unfortunate timing got caught up in the general protest against the established order of things. Spain and Italy has seen major populist movements gaining significant ground. Renzi’s failed constitutional referendum being the latest casualty.
It has been interesting to read this Brexit forum. I am an amateur social historian and some of the attitudes and opinions written throughout the thread are a classic example of populists protest. Everyone knows what they are against but have little idea how society should move forward after Brexit. Or more relevantly perhaps what was really wrong with the status quo?
The populists do the damage through the ballot box but it’s for the people they elected who need to sort the wreckage. Trying to satisfy populist’s opinion is an impossible task and like all political careers, doomed to failure. Post Brexit British society will remain exactly as before, except eventually more economically deprived and with less influence in the world.
On the forum there are many well word meaningless platitudes of ‘freedom’ and ‘independence’ or ‘control of our borders’ written but in general I see a cry influenced by populists from another troubled society in crisis.
Brexit for the British was simply the easiest target to aim at given that the government foolishly handed it to the people on a plate.
The most relevant and for me interesting question is why? Why has this movement of populist disaffection taken root so successfully? Why are people so discontent with their societies they are prepared to risk everything?
We can speculate on the causes until the cows come home. Many academics have postulated on the phenomena but in truth there is no one answer. Except perhaps one fairly simple explanation.
I believe people’s expectations today are out of sync with realities. Social media and mass advertising raises expectations to a new high in the minds of ordinary folk. Then society fails to deliver it. Result disaffection, anger and a desire to break or simply to create change for changes sake.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 09/12/2016.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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David Cameron has blamed 'populism' for his humiliating EU referendum defeat and warned the euro may not survive in his first major address since leaving Downing Street.
The former PM said he saw 'more trouble ahead' as people give voice to their dissatisfaction with the direction society has been going.
And although he said he did not think the EU would fall apart entirely, Mr Cameron made clear the single currency was in mortal danger.
Mr Cameron was speaking to students at DePauw University in Indiana, US, in his first major speech since his resignation.
It is not clear how much the ex-premier was paid for the address - but he received a fee of £120,000 for a private speech to Wall Street financiers last month.
I don't know to much about these new fan-dangled words like 'Populism' and such, suppose thats going to be another fresh word to blame everything on when it don't go your way, but this much I do know, the above fella Cameron blames this new word on his having to leave, nothing to do with the fact he was bloody useless at the job then.
Why is it that we the public get the blame for the balls up the governments make pretending they always know best looking at the world though rose tinted glasses while the public get the sharp end of the stick?
'Populism' in 'Brexit' out.
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I thought populism was akin to popular, which used to be good didn't it?
Of course nowadays according to some a popular decision could be made for ALL the wrong reasons.
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The Brexit referendum because of its unfortunate timing got caught up in the general protest against the established order of things. Spain and Italy has seen major populist movements gaining significant ground. Renzi’s failed constitutional referendum being the latest casualty.
It has been interesting to read this Brexit forum. I am an amateur social historian and some of the attitudes and opinions written throughout the thread are a classic example of populists protest. Everyone knows what they are against but have little idea how society should move forward after Brexit. Or more relevantly perhaps what was really wrong with the status quo?
.....
So Micky cannot even concede that the referendum was won by more votes for out than for in.
The only opportunity in the UK for each and every single vote to count rather than a first past the list system.
Duh, that's the binary choice that parliament voted to give us.
Timing was unfortunate?
How come?
When would have been a better time to hold it, when we had been promised on by 2017?
Spain had already had 2 undecided elections because of a split in the vote, now it has a difficult coalition and is still running a deficit greater than permitted under EU rules with 20% unemployment, Italy always has coalitions because of its electoral system, it's banks are broke and its GDP is lower now than 10 years ago.
I think the votes are coming from a new younger generation who demand change to the old style politics, because it many cases they have been left behind, I know that's true in Spain, young people are fed up with traditionalism and corruption.
Just because something has worked for 60 or even 40 years, doesn't mean to say it is good for whole population, the rich everywhere have got richer and the poor have got poorer and their jobs have moved away to countries where wages are lower and jobs less secure.
Populism, if that's want you want to call it, is a vote against the status quo which suits many but is UNPOPULAR with a majority.
Let us hope Brexit is eventually seen as a Force for Change in Europe.
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I was just wondering if any body is going to comment on the Sleaford by election where ordinary working class people have just given the thums up to Mrs May,l thought the Remoners on hear would be interested as they seem to be full of it when the Lib Dems won the Richmond by election where no flat caps or whippet's are allowed.
This message was last edited by windtalker on 09/12/2016.
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A strong tory safe seat no great shock unlike Richmond
Wonder how many people seen TM's name on the ballot paper in either by election
Maybe they voted for the MP's
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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My Guess (which is just as likely to be right as Micky's) is that a snap referendum held, without campaigning, at any time since 2000 would have voted out by a larger majority than that registered on June 23rd. The people were not being listened to by the metro elite.
Virtually everyone I know (and I agree I am in the age group for this - but it includes both northerners and southerners) would have voted out. The only significant changers at the time were those worried about the economy and convinced by project fear and those feeling that they had to show solidarity with the murdered MP.
So the significance of timing was from my viewpoint the reverse of that which Micky postulates.
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