BREXIT

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18 Oct 2016 10:27 AM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

Brian.

The pursuit of profit has been “unloved” since Socrates declared that “The more [men] think of making a fortune, the less they think of virtue.” 

Capitalism like democracy works because it’s better than all the alternatives. Both provide the human spirit with hope and without hope or ambition we decline as a species.

I will admit capitalism leaves many behind in its wake as it improves the lives of many others. The post war social consensus was designed to deal with that very problem. An effective welfare state is a requirement to become an EU member. In a sense the EU represents a guarantee of balance between the rampant capitalism of a US model and the welfare state.

It is no coincidence that the anti EU rhetoric we witnessed during the referendum campaign began life among the Thatcherite wing of the Conservative Party reconstituted as UKIP. Remember it was Thatcher who said “There is no such thing as society only individuals”.

I lifted this from The Economist.

Capitalism has raised the living standards of billions of people since the 18th century and improved their life expectancy. The rapid improvement in the growth rates of China and India in recent decades as they headed (albeit not entirely) in a capitalist direction are further signs of the system’s vitality, as is the contrast between capitalist South Korea and the communist North.

The revival of anti-capitalist rhetoric owes much to the financial crisis of 2008 and its aftermath. The crisis was merely the latest example of the inherent stability of capitalism, a process that, while allowing the economy to benefit from “creative destruction”, causes a lot of collateral damage along the way. The real problem is that capitalism has become associated with high finance, rather than the heroic entrepreneurship of Thomas Edison, whose inventions still surround us. 

 



_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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18 Oct 2016 10:48 AM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

Mickeyfinn,

I take your point about light regulation (which to me can become just lip service without purposeful intent if you're not careful!) but at least we can make the Govt more accountable by bringing injustice to the attention of our local Govt representatives who in my personal experience are far more effective ( when not inhibited by crazy EU treaty clauses that inhibit them taking action) than appears the case with MEPs and the EU bureaucrats.I can't tell you the number of times the quote has been used that our Govt are not at liberty to act on injustices given the current treaty arrangements.

If only the EU Commission would wag a finger of control in the right instances to protect citizens rights Mickeyfinn instead of just giving lip service to a vital part of their perceived function. I remember an MEP making just that point in the EU Parliament when he tried to defend citizens rights many moons ago..... And sadly here we still are.

P.s. Just read your reply to Brian. The economist quote gives credence to Mervyn King's approach that I mentioned in a previous posting (his intuitive sympathies are much more with industry than high finance) in contrast to Mark Carney's approach whose emphasis appears to be on high finance is it not?

 

 

 

 


This message was last edited by ads on 18/10/2016.


This message was last edited by ads on 18/10/2016.



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18 Oct 2016 11:11 AM by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1982 posts Send private message

Hi mickeyfinn.   

I believe I mentioned that capitalism is waiting something better?

if you think of the species we belong to and the birth of capitalism, how quick can you blink an eye?   Well it will never be quick enough.  In which case I table the motion that we have thrived as a species long before democracy or capitalism, and capitalism, while having its uses, has become greedy, unfair and counter productive to society.  

I also don't believe you can place the EU in an order of merit for the introduction of social values, that was a direct kick against the rampant capitalism, slavery and serfdom etc existing over a great many years, lets not be too kind to post EU claims please.   We gave them that one didn't we .  

Im also happy to read the views of the economist although have very different views.  I would wager the column was written by a very comfortable individual with a view down on the economy, rather than up from the floor of the economy. 

When the Economist has such balance, it will be a more interesting read.

Socrates is good though, keep reading that as well, if only for balance.

Thatcher.....well...I guess it's a free speech society eh.  

 


This message was last edited by briando55 on 18/10/2016.

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Best wishes, Brian

 




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19 Oct 2016 11:29 AM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

Parliament has the right to reject the final Brexit deal, No.10 has indicated for the first time – raising the possibility that Britain’s EU exit could yet be halted.

Downing Street agreed it is “very likely” that MPs and peers will be given a vote once the withdrawal negotiations are finished, after the issue arose in the High Court.

The statement – after the Prime Minister repeatedly refused to give ground on demands for Parliament to have a say on Brexit – immediately triggered furious debate about the possible consequences.

One senior pro-EU Conservative MP called it a “victory for all those who believe in the right of Parliament to represents the interests of our constituents”.

 



_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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19 Oct 2016 11:37 AM by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1982 posts Send private message

Hmmmmm.   The leaving may be 'halted' and this is after the negotiations have completed.   Then it has to be ratified in parliament by MP's who's constituents have already told them what they wish to do.  

After this the upper chamber consisting of most voters who belong closer to the days of Rudyard than our younger generation.  

Oh.   And just one MP has indicated it's a victory for his or her view of parliament. 

Sounds like a slow news day to me.   One newspaper view I guess?  



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Best wishes, Brian

 




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19 Oct 2016 12:46 PM by rob_j1 Star rating. 99 posts Send private message

Briando1955

As reported on the BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37691270

Commons vote to ratify Brexit deal likely, says No 10

Downing Street has said it is "very likely" MPs will be able to vote on the final Brexit agreement reached between the UK and the European Union.

Number 10 confirmed the comment by a government lawyer in the High Court represented the "government's view".

The vote would take place after negotiations have taken place and with Brexit already triggered using Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty.

Campaigners have been calling for a vote before Article 50 is triggered.

Open Britain, formerly the Remain campaign, said the government's comments were an "encouraging sign" but renewed calls for a debate and vote earlier in the process, before Article 50 begins two years of formal negotiations.

The UK is expected to leave the European Union in 2019.

Prime Minister Theresa May opposes a vote before Article 50, saying those calling for one are "trying to subvert" the outcome of June's referendum.

The issue is currently the subject of a landmark legal challenge, with the government defending what it says is its right to invoke Article 50 without Parliamentary approval.

It's the question pre-occupying many MPs as Britain prepares to leave the EU. What role will they have in shaping and approving the final withdrawal deal the UK reaches with Brussels? Theresa May plans to begin talks with the EU by the end of March and negotiations will last for two years.

The government's legal team have now clarified what they believe happens then.

James Eadie QC said it was "very likely" the UK and the EU would agree a new treaty that would have to be ratified by Parliament.

A law passed in 2010 gave MPs the power to block a treaty indefinitely. But in practice, would Parliament at that point derail the UK's withdrawal agreement with the EU?

David Pannick QC, acting for one of the claimants in the High Court case, said even if Parliament refused to approve the final Brexit deal, the UK would have to leave the EU anyway - with or without an agreement. That is why, he argued, parliament needed to vote before formal talks began.

Judges who heard the case said they would give their decision "as quickly as possible". An appeal to the Supreme Court later in the year is expected, whatever the outcome.


During the High Court hearing, government lawyer James Eadie QC moved on to what was likely to happen at the end of the negotiations, in 2019, saying: "The government view at the moment is it is very likely that any such agreement will be subject to ratification."

If this vote ends with MPs rejecting the Brexit deal, the UK would still leave the EU, Lord Pannick, who is acting for the campaigners challenging the government, told the court.

"Parliament cannot reverse the notification," he said.

The UK would either leave with no agreement or reach a new one, he said, adding: "But the new agreement cannot restore the rights that are irretrievably lost, and whether there is a new agreement is out of the hands of Parliament."

Labour's shadow Brexit secretary Sir Keir Starmer said: "A vote so late in the day would put MPs between a rock and a hard place. It would ask us to choose between a deal on the government's terms or leaving the European Union with no deal at all."

UK voters opted in favour of leaving the EU by 51.9% to 48.1% in a referendum in June.





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19 Oct 2016 3:30 PM by Destry Star rating in MYOB . 289 posts Send private message

Whilst listening to a radio chat show this morning one of the guests was vitriolic about Brexit minister David Davies's stand on dental age checks on immigrant 'children'. Sorry, wrong David Davies, also wrong spelling (Davis) and wrong nationality (whoops racist comment), apart from that, well ?????   



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19 Oct 2016 3:53 PM by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1982 posts Send private message

Rob,  The article after the headline seems to agree with what I have been saying, what is the point we are making here?

Hi Destry.  Yes, I thought it was the other one as well before I saw him on telly!

So Ms Abbot has said its against human rights to check someones age by dental inspection, if they are suspected to be older than the allowed age our government has stated.

I wonder what views there are on that amongst us brexiteers    



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Best wishes, Brian

 




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19 Oct 2016 4:16 PM by Destry Star rating in MYOB . 289 posts Send private message

Well as a fellow brexiteer I'm not that fussed, unless they have been radicalised and are being slipped into the UK under false pretences. Leaving the EU doesn't mean that we are leaving the human race, we just want control of our own borders, well I do anyway.



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IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT. THANK YOU.



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19 Oct 2016 5:50 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

I hear all usual back channels for the UK with EU leaders are closed. That's an indication that the EU intends to play hardball with the UK in any negotiations. In diplomatic terms that position is very unusual.

For expats living in Europe especially the retired the situation is very worrying. We could well end up losing much of our current rights and medical access.

You who live in the UK may not think that matters. Well consider that in the event of expats being disenfranchised and denied free medical care in the country of residence the only practical option is to return to the UK or at least register on the NHS.

In practice that will mean a sudden million or so more people flooding the countries social benefit system and the NHS. They cannot be denied because they will be UK nationals in need.

Also the three million EU nationals living in the UK currently will also likely be denied access to social healthcare benefit. It follows then they would be forced to give up their jobs and return home.

Simply seeing Brexit as a way to prevent immigration got Britain into this potentially disastrous mess in the first place.

It’s going to take a very skilled political force to get this right to benefit everyone. There is little wonder Cameron quit saying “Let someone else do the hard shit”.

It is also estimated the City of London as a world financial centre will be reduced by at least half of it's current activity. Quite a price to pay for simply controlling immigration, but hey that's what the UK people voted for.

The future for the UK looks like a reactionary right wing nation who  may end up as among the poorest in Europe. Very sad.

 


This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 19/10/2016.

_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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19 Oct 2016 5:56 PM by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1982 posts Send private message

I agree entirely  

Well as a fellow brexiteer I'm not that fussed, unless they have been radicalised and are being slipped into the UK under false pretences. Leaving the EU doesn't mean that we are leaving the human race, we just want control of our own borders, well I do anyway.



_______________________

Best wishes, Brian

 




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19 Oct 2016 7:29 PM by windtalker Star rating. 1949 posts Send private message

As a Brexiteer myself l am all for MPs having the final say on how we leave the EU ,for instance if a MP votes against a particular part of the exit plan he or she must clearly state the reason behind voting against ,and they must have a alternative plan that can be debated on if they have no other plan other than to disrupt the procedure their vote should be taken away. In other words if you have not got a better way then put up and shut up.





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19 Oct 2016 9:41 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

Just heard that Philip Hammond has just admitted to the Select Committee that the data upon which the remainers economic model was based was invaIid.. i.e. it was looking to the worst case scenario.....which was exactly what the leave economists highlighted from the outset in their critique of the Govt's projections during the referendum campaign.

How ironic that the leave economists who were mocked at the time when producing their own economic model have been proven to be more realistic.

 


This message was last edited by ads on 19/10/2016.



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19 Oct 2016 9:55 PM by hughjardon Star rating in Jaywick Sands. 418 posts Send private message

hughjardon´s avatar

Mickey that's a net gain of 2 mil of the NHS that's POSITIVE 

Also getting rid of 50% of crooked BANKERS is another WIN WIN

I think you are COMING AROUND a bit

Love Hugh xxx



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19 Oct 2016 11:32 PM by perrypower1 Star rating in Derbyshire/Fuerteven.... 647 posts Send private message

perrypower1´s avatar

Skilled workers to be exempt from immigration curbs.  Doctors, nurses, IT specialists oh and hughgardon's Favorite...BANKERS.  AHAHAHAHAHA

Dont you just love reality.  





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20 Oct 2016 7:28 AM by acer Star rating. 1537 posts Send private message

Reality???...I cannot think that Hughjardon actually knows any bankers...why would he?



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20 Oct 2016 9:33 AM by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1982 posts Send private message

Micky.  

If expats are dependant on NHS when abroad, my understanding is that the NHS is charged for the service by the EU country it is provided.

If expats that can't afford to move abroad have been subsidised by the home country can't they survive without benefits?

i have to say I'm not up with the tax system but if pensions or savings are held abroad, have people been paying tax 'over there or over there'?



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Best wishes, Brian

 




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20 Oct 2016 10:07 AM by Destry Star rating in MYOB . 289 posts Send private message

The problem with the NHS is that is doesn't appear to have either a will or a way to claim back these costs when it the other was round, don't bame the patients, blame the system. 

 


This message was last edited by Destry on 20/10/2016.

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20 Oct 2016 10:12 AM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

British nationals of retirement age who moved to another EU country took their entitlement to free healthcare on the NHS and transferred it to another countries system. That entitlement was built up over a working lifetime of NI contributions. The NHS pays a fixed sum annually to every EU nation where the pensioner takes up residence.

That entitlement is given through reciprocal EU treaties on the basis of the UK being a member of the EU. They may be bilateral but only because of the UK EU status. The assumption is after Brexit that status ceases and it follows the treaties will also come to an end unless a specific provision is made during the negotiations.   

Likewise the EHIC which entitles UK nationals to emergency state medical care within the EU for none residents will also cease after Brexit. The NHS is usually billed for the treatment. These concession, for that is what they are, will undoubtedly form part of the final agreement, if there ever is one. Or as I suspect the EU leaders behave obstructively then maybe not.

No one can assume these entitlements will continue and no one can predict the final outcome. My best advice to expats in Europe who are currently dependent on these treaties is to firstly be aware of the risks Brexit will bring and to seek an alternative plan B. For most people that may involve either returning to live in the UK or arrange a sort of halfway house. Where you visit the UK for healthcare but live in Europe. Not very satisfactory but for retired people private medical insurance is usually impossible.

 


 


This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 20/10/2016.

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Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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20 Oct 2016 10:35 AM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

Mickyfinn

Yes bilateral agreements are a pre requisite of membership of EU  but Brexit does not automatically cancel these agreements and continuance will be between each individual country in this case UK AND Spain to decide

There is no indication either way so just assumptions guesswork and scaremongering 

Why bother until we know for sure

 


This message was last edited by Tadd1966 on 20/10/2016.

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