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"When we are again a free and democratic nation, then we will be back on the track we diverged from in 1972"......
ie a steady relentless decline.
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Scollins
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a steady relentless decline.
O ye of little faith.
We performed well in the 50's and early 60's ('you've never had it so good' - Supermac) as did Europe, but we had been an industrial nation for far longer than most of Europe, much of our infrastructure dated from the 19th century and we had very poor industrial relations. Europe had more capacity for continued expansion.
We joined the EU just as it's initial surge of economic expansion came to an end. We were too late for the party.
We sorted our own industrial malaise in the 80's with no help from the EU and have been held back by EU beaurocracy and tarrifs ever since.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 16/09/2016.
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'having lost our Empire....' that really is jaw dropping.
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What empire? British Leyland. When we were kings.
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"Great Britain has lost an Empire and has not yet found a role."
Dean Acheson US Secretary of State West Point Dec 1962
Probably a bit lazy of me to use this common starting point for British modern history.
I have always thought "Britain's loss of power and prestige after the stress of fighting WW2 " or the Suez Crisis
were equally valid starting points.
Whatever, it was a loss of confidence in our own ablity to thrive in the future that led sucessive governments in the UK to apply to join the EEC when we had initially rejected the European Coal and Steel Community and the Treaty of Rome in favour of our links with the Commonwealth.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 16/09/2016.
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Ted, Baz, Hugh, you won the referendum so stop trying to fight that battle. Now stand and deliver what you promised for Brexit or accept that Leave mislead the nation and we should never trigger a.50. Surely Boris, Gove, Farage et.al. Had a plan for if, as, and when we left. Stop blaming Remain for not having a Brexit Plan. Remain had the plan for staying. The plan for Brexit was Leave's responsibility. Deliver or concede that you got it wrong. Or better still admit that it was a leap in the dark and you just don't know what to do. But please stop telling us how great we are going to be when we leave the EU or how great we were before joining.
Get on with Brexit or stand aside and let Remain show you how it is done.
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Perripower1 how would the remain camp go about controlling emigration in to the UK, and sorting out the overloaded NHS that everyone in the EU membership has the right to use free of charge . according to the EU this should be paid for the UK by the UK tax payer .
This message was last edited by windtalker on 17/09/2016.
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Ted, Baz, Hugh, you won the referendum so stop trying to fight that battle. Now stand and deliver what you promised for Brexit or accept that Leave mislead the nation
No battle to be fought here. We won the battle, you remainers had everything going for you, you had a PM who was in the job for some years, you had a secure government, same for years, and if you cared to admit it said a lot, but did next to nothing.
Us remainers had to listen to your PM coming out with every lie going, and plus some, where as we, the one's who had the sense to see what the EU has done to the UK over the past years, have a new PM, almost a new set of government figures, who as I have said before have only been in the job for a matter of months so no sensible person can argue that they haven't done much...Yet.
The best yet is to come, you remainers just have to trust the leavers, which is something you lot cannot do because you prefer to be fed lies about how good the EU is / was for the UK.
Of course it was a leap in the dark, the same darkness that Cameron and Co fed everyone to stay, the same darkness when we first joined up, the same lies.
It beggars belief that all those who voted to stay know what will happen when we leave, but everyone who voted to leave knows nothing....Oh and we have stood aside and watched you remainers how it's done...Over the long past wastefull expensive years.
This message was last edited by baz1946 on 17/09/2016.
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Baz " ..... Us remainers had to listen to your PM coming out with every lie going,..."
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I wonder how long it's going to take for disillusionment to set in among the Brexit camp? How long will it be before Brexit will be accepted it was indeed a disaster for the UK? Who will then win the blame game?
Of course diehards like baz will probably never arrive at that point of awakening. However remember you Brexiteers have it all to prove now. The UK was doing very nicely before 23rd June. We have a benchmark in which the British public can quantify and call to account the Brexit effect in the future.
By the next general election in 2020, if as I expect Brexit is starting to damage the British economy any political party that offers a return to EU membership or the single market may well gain some traction.
This debate is not a done deal. It’s the beginning of a process which may end up changing absolutely nothing except a few politicians who actually matter not.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Never fear, IF Owen Smith beats Corbyn for the Labour leadership he will apply to re-join the EU So that would be IN, OUT, IN, maybe he should change the national anthem to that of the Okey-Cokey.
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Micky: ............... This debate is not a done deal. It’s the beginning of a process which may end up changing absolutely nothing except a few politicians who actually matter not.. ............
Unlike some here who are clearly very knowledgeable about this, I thought that having triggered Article 50, then after 2 years, no matter what agreements UK may or may not have made, the UK cease to be members. No ?
http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/the-mechanics-of-leaving-the-eu-explaining-article-50/
Quote:_ The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period
This message was last edited by johnzx on 17/09/2016.
This message was last edited by johnzx on 17/09/2016.
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John.
My point is about about political and public sentiment changing towards Brexit if it proves a failure. It was not about the process of leaving which I'm sure will be followed through. After all it cannot be judged a failure until it actually takes affect.
As I said the Brexiteers have it all to prove.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Windtalker
Immigration was an issue for the Leave camp who promised great solutions but have no ideas. Remain did not ahve a major issue with immigration but offered a negotiated solution to ease the burden on the UK (from the EU) but Leave said,"not good enough". There are bilateral agreements about Health Care across the EU including reimbursement arrangements, you might want to look them up.
The NHS is overloaded because for years we have confused Health Care with Care for the elderly. The NHS is paid for by the taxpayer and is there to ensure health, not social welfare. Social Services are there to deal with home visits etc and that needs to be paid for by the user in part. After all reaching age 60 to 65 does not suddenly mean that the state (taxpaters) can afford to take care of you for the rest of your life. You need to provide for your own assisted living (except in poverty).
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baz, nothing new from you then. Either deliver or stand aside.
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While I believe that the real effect (negative or positive) is still to come, I do think there is one indisputable indication of Britain's new place in the world, with Theresa May being relagated to the back of photographs and excluded from various talks in the latest pow wow in China. Even a lot of the Brexit press noticed that. The UK will simply become - has already become - less relevant. And as our econonmic wealth declines, (from 5th largest economy to 6th to 7th - who knows?) so too will our status in the world.
And having recovered a bit from seeing the wistful reference to the 'loss of the Empire', can I just remind everyone that the various Empires around the world are what is coming home to roost and threatening western values today? It is old colonial migrants causing a lot of the concerns in France, and our open door policy towards the subcontinent that led to the first mass influxes which have caused so much discontent in more recent years. If that is truly what people are looking for - a return to the days of the Raj - they are going to be very sorely disappointed.
And truly - you Brexiters - I just don't know how anyone has the brass neck to accuse the remainers of lying...........
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Wistfulness is your invention Roly, Perhaps you are wistful for the EU promises that never materialised?
We will retain status as a soverign power. There is no status in being an offshore island of a declining EU.
Lies? Where is the emergency budget, where is the crashing economy, where is my pension cut?
All you can rant on about are the figures on the bus, which, while deceptive came from EU publications and were extensively discussed during the campaign. As the outers were a disperate bunch with many different agendas several differing views were heard from them. Meanwhile there was a highly organised deception campagn run by the government using our money in favour of staying.
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Bratislava
"Disagreements were not confined to Europe’s north-south divide over austerity, but also erupted over the east-west split on immigration, with Viktor Orban, the Hungarian prime minister, condemning the EU’s migration policy as “self-destructive and naïve”.
Mr Orban, the nationalist strongman who this month promised to mount a “counter-revolution” to take power back to the EU capitals, made his attack in direct defiance of warnings from senior EU leaders to stop bashing Brussels"
I still feel that we should have initiated article 50 straight away or even rescinded the European Commuities Act unilaterally.
But perhap Mrs May is a little wiser than I. It seems that free movement may be a dead duck before January, so that we are only negociating a trade deal.
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I recently witnessed some TV footage on euronews where an investigator was interviewing citizens from several different member states, and they all without exception stated their concerns and vulnerabilities (discontent) with regard to the free movement of people and lack of adequate controls.
I wonder therefore at what point will the European bureaucrats start to pay heed to their own European citizens genuine concerns with regard to the impact on their everyday lives, or whether this has now become a form of dictatorship by Junker and Tusk, an imposition of unrealistic political ideology, without due regard to the uncomfortable realities that if not addressed will only proliferate the growth of right wing elements?
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Please tell me what free political union around the globe does not have its share of internal strife? Even individual political parties are a broad church where disagreements on policy threaten to tear them apart.
It would be strange and suspicious structure indeed if the EU members always agreed on everything along the lines of North Korea. Highlighting these disagreements and conflicts are a sign of healthy debate and democratic principles at work.
Europe is learning how to move forward without Britain. Britain no longer has any influence in the political and economic life of a continent it belongs to geographically. Britain is lost, an off shore island without any clout.
Brexiteers have a lot to prove. If they can’t deliver their form of a promised land, ‘taking back control’ whatever that means they will be out on their ears. I look forward to the day.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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