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Quote of the day:
"The thing that gets hidden on both sides is what deal we do on trade will be linked to what deal we can do on immigration".
Will Moy, director of Full Fact, on Brexit.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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In teh 1970's the UK owned most ofits own industry
Now most of it is owned by overseas companies including many EU countries
Some examples
Most of UK power generating companies, UK airports and ports, UK water companies, many of UK rail franchises and UK chemical, engineering and electronic companies, UK merchant banks, an iconic chocolate company - Cadbury, , a vast amount of expensive housing and many, many other assets all in foreign ownership.
I wonder what will happen to them, how many have relocation contingency plans in place
Where is the UK industrial economic growth going to come from if all of these owners decide they are better off elsewhere in the EU - opps forgot Mike Ashley, sports direct will buy everything on the cheap
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Its a valid point Tadd. One thing is certain further investment projects are currently on hold. If Brexit happens there will likely be a fire sale. These companies bought these business because of access to the single market. They have developed them in positive ways the original owners could or would not. Employment and investment go hand in hand.
The ForeX market seems to now believe Brexit won't happen. Sterling is rising this week nicely on buying. They may get their fingers burned.
FT headline: Sterling climbs to 10 week peak. Easing Brexit fears provide momentum
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 26/04/2016.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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The WW2 debs to the US (at 2% annual, not compound interest) was paid off in 2006. The WW1 loan (which was in bonds) was only paid off in 2014. The bonds were simply hanging around and were called in in 2014 just to get it off the books. The WW2 debts were to be paid off in 50 annual amounts whereas no time limit was placed on the WW1 loans.
I will be very glad when this whole thing is over. The pound is up at the moment because (according to FX and UBS services) the remain side is going up in the polls. However, lots of projects have been put on hold in UK and foreign investment (which far outweighs any trade deficit with the EU) is being cut back purely because of the uncertainty.
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I am an 'undecided' voter, and in all honesty I haven't got a clue which way to vote, but I know it's not the correct way to decide but by being told by people like Obama who to vote completely has the reverse effect , I am sorry to say Mickey Finn as well, most of your posts make me feel like I am a complete idiotic schoolboy being scalded for asking questions, Are you really a genius that knows what will happen if we Brexit ? There seems to be so much scaremongering about leaving I feel like saying sod it lets vote out and see !!
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I'm no genius and I'm sorry my posts make you think that way sox. I have probably lived too long outside the UK to be relevant to modern Brits. I can accept that. However I do study this subject in depth and try communicating as best I can what I see as the dangers and pitfalls the UK may face trying to go it alone.
My perspectives now are entirely as a European, a francophile and a winter migrant to Spain. Europe for me is home. Britain another place. That said I hope I can make some valid comments that support my belief the UK is better staying in than leaving.
The EU is work in progress. It's a bold unfinished project that can deliver a better world if its allowed to. It gets knocked off course by world events, economic turbulences and by individuals with power who seek its demise to further their own ends.
I have faith in it's ideals I want the British to share in them because Europe needs the UK every bit as much as the Brits need Europe. It's a human concept most of us understand. Strength by sticking together is a simple concept to grasp.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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but equally the EEC wasn't to blame for the UK's collapse, which tteed clearly implies without any apparent shred of justification.
Bit of time passed since that comment. But have to say I did not imply anything. Others implied that everything improved from the time we joined the EEC. I just pointed out that it was not so. All sorts of things were going on between 72 and 79 but things undeniably got worse before they got any better and, as pointed out, it was Mrs Thatcher rather than the EEC that was responsible for the improvement.
I do not like using names but as I like something I will. I quite like Micky's post below as he sets out, for once, his beliefs. Many of us believe he is utterly wrong.
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I am with Mickyfinn and many many others I talk to
We are all human beings with the same basic needs and wants which I have mentioned many times
We will never get this going our separate ways
we need to be together as one and we need to expand this across the globe so that every child that is born has the same future, free of slavery, crime and have the right to live safely and comfortably wherever they are born and live
going it alone is only down to greed and selfishness of a few
the EU is not perfect but 3 steps forward and 2 steps back is still progress and we have progessed very well since the end of WW2.
remember it has taken the UK over 300 years to get to the 4 state union we have today - which still has its faults and we are still learning
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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I have probably lived too long outside the UK to be relevant to modern Brits. I can accept that. However I do study this subject in depth and try communicating as best I can what I see as the dangers and pitfalls the UK may face trying to go it alone.
My perspectives now are entirely as a European, Europe for me is home. Britain another place. That said I hope I can make some valid comments that support my belief the UK is better staying in than leaving.
The EU is work in progress. It's a bold unfinished project that can deliver a better world if its allowed to. It gets knocked off course by world events, economic turbulences and by individuals with power who seek its demise to further their own ends.
I have faith in it's ideals I want the British to share in them because Europe needs the UK every bit as much as the Brits need Europe. It's a human concept most of us understand. Strength by sticking together is a simple concept to grasp.
In an earlier post I asked and I thought you lived in the UK Micky, seems now you don't, this is the main problem that is happening here, many who haven't lived through what has changed in the UK due to the EU seem to understand how good it will be for the UK to stay in the EU, that I don't see at all.
The EU is work in progress, well considering we have been in since 1973, granted as I mentioned before not in the shape it is now, thats 43 years in, if this is work in progress and an unfinished project, any idea of how much longer to finish it? or wont it ever finish, it's one big gravy train for those in it, and those coming into it, thats why it wont ever change and finish.
Europe needs the British money, our money is one hell of a chunk to lose and they know it, could be if..And it's a big IF, the UK leaves this could be what others are waiting for so they can decide also in or out.
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going it alone is only down to greed and selfishness of a few
Careful. Some of us might think you are applying that to us. There are an awfull lot of greedy selfish people working for international bodies including the EU many on taxfree bloated salaries with lots of perks and expenses. All these people are of course in favour of the EU. Some MP's come into this catagory (not the tax free bit) they do nothing constructive in their whole life. It must be great to be chucked out as an MP and given a job in the EU commission or some other international body.
If you are a socialist you might say it is on the back of the working man. If you are a capitalist it is on the back of productive industry.
the EU is not perfect but 3 steps forward and 2 steps back is still progress and we have progessed very well since the end of WW2.
I'll give you the backward steps. It has been all backwards for the UK. But it may well be forwards for Spain or the Eastern states.
remember it has taken the UK over 300 years to get to the 4 state union we have today - which still has its faults and we are still learning
If you start at the birth of Christ or the Roman invasion it took about 1700 years. Or perhaps King Alfred (claimed to be king of Britain) - not sure of my dates but about 900 years to 1701~. But we have had a successful union for the past 300 years.
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The problem appears to be the lack of willingness to learn from the mistakes and look to best practice elsewhere to speed up the " progress" , to recognise the turning of a blind eye to ongoing unaccountability by those perceived as an unelected "elite" which leads to mistrust and disillusionment, and the profound impact from failures to regulate from ongoing abuse (most notably Banking abuse).... Etc etc
This message was last edited by ads on 27/04/2016.
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tteed - as we have had a successful union why can't we show the way and use teh 4 state union of the UK as a "working model" for an EU state
An exit will surley be the start of the break up of the 4 union state and a waste of 300 hundred years of learning to live side by side together and ultimatley take us backwards big time
As for
greedy selfish people working for international bodies including the EU many on taxfree bloated salaries with lots of perks and expenses
This is a sad state of affairs and happens all over the world but as public opinion is changing esecpailly with "open book" and clarity this will change as we go forwrad together because the people will demand it
It has been all backwards for the UK.
Can't see how thsi is true. Having experienced a lot of the benfits of the EU for the UK worked for many EU projects in the UK, applied for and awarded many EU funds for many projects some of which were rejected by UK politcians. Add to this teh UK have bee at the forefurnt of EU development and influenced and propsoed many good ideas
Saying that the UK gov plc selling off all UK's assets has not really helped and this is not the fault of the EU but mis management of UK plc
We really need to stop thinking about oursleves and think of the bigger world and focus on the needs of the citizens and NOT the politicians or the fat cats
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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The Prime Minister's inner circle are using a WhatsApp group to discuss plans to keep Britain in the EU to escape official scrutiny, it was claimed.
Ministers and Cameron's aides are reportedly using the messaging app to share crucial information because, unlike Government email addresses, it is not subject to Freedom of Information requests.
Brexit campaigners have called for a full investigation, describing the group as 'criminal', but it has yet to emerge exactly which ministers and aides are in the group chat.
Ministers Nicky Morgan, Sajid Javid, and Stephen Crabb all use WhatsApp but denied being involved. Chancellor George Osborne refused to comment.
A source said they use it to plan and share news links, and also alleged that ministers may have had a similar group in the run-up to the May election last year.
Vote Leave CEO Matthew Elliott said: 'Not only are David Cameron's taxpayer-funded spin doctors running the 'In' campaign, they have now been caught trying to hide their secrets from the public,
Anyone believe that this is happening?
WhatsApp is 100% encrypted from start to finish so only the sender and receiver can read sent messages.
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Whatsapp is one of the great communications innervations of the modern age. It's instant, effective, private and free if you use Wi-Fi. I use it all the time. It's hardly surprising government ministers do as well. I'm sure they use all kinds of other tools to communicate. Even quill pens!
This is a newspaper mudslinging story which most of us will see through. I fear we are in for much of this from both sides in the fifty six days to come before the vote.
The FT carries a great story this morning by Martin Wolf listing all the reasons Brexit does not add up for the country. I urge you to read it.
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/c72960f0-088c-11e6-a623-b84d06a39ec2.html#axzz470NXbbeP
Also the OECD has published a report today damming Brexit as the equivalent to ‘losing a month’s income in four years’.
The Brexiteers cannot deny that the mainstream opinion from almost every public and private body is to remain in the EU. I can only keep on repeating that to leave is a giant leap in the dark for the nation. Giant risk must carry equal giant rewards.
I cannot see where these rewards inhabit but hey I don't live in the UK and have no idea how the country is suffering. Not.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Here we go again Micky Finn, telling us like school kids what to read and believe in !!
Obviously Martin Wolfe is an in campaigner so will put the emphasis on what he assumes Brexit will mean if we leave, I could read as many articles reading the supposed advantages if we do leave but I am not being told continuously that I have to read these by the leave campaigners, so again why are you telling people what to do and what to read, I hope that most readers on here have more intelligence than you think.
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sox
maybe you should post some of the artciles that tell us teh advantages of leaving - no need to have a go a MF none of us want to go there again
I have read many articles for both sides and nothing I have seen even remotely convinces me that an exit from the EU would be benefical to me, my family, my friends or the UK or the EU or the global economy or anyone
I have not seen one decent argument for leaving the EU
_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Perhaps I should read the article but I wont, thank you for it though.
Myself I see no reason to read about any reasons to stay or leave, I have seen what has happened with the EU concerning the UK, don't like it one bit.
I also cannot for the life of me understand how the UK leaders know what will happen if we leave, they didn't even know the outcome of joining it all those years ago because it wasn't what it was meant to be, it was a con back then with the EU controllers knowing they will change it to the way they wanted it to be.
Not in the same mold but our wise leaders couldn't even forsee the problems they would create, which they did, and have caused in the Middle East.
Anyway like blair has done, these now will do the same, tell lies, make a balls up, walk away from it when the time comes.
I am voting leave...But I know 100% we wont...Said it before and say it again...The results will be fiddled to stay.
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Come on Sox I'm not telling anyone what they 'HAVE TO DO'. I merely urged you to read something you may find interesting. The choice whether to do that is yours.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Micky Finn, you are urging us what to do in every post you write !!
For goodness sake give it a rest, their is a difference between a good debate and being force fed !!
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You dont have to read this thread or what I write. That's another choice available to you.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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