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Mickeyfinn,
Another wrong analogy I'm afraid. To suggest that I have "personal agenda" is wrong. I have been fighting for reform for all manner of reasons and wanted the EU to succeed, wanted them to provide reassurances and demonstrate they were listening to genuine citizen concerns, wanted them to demonstrate their commitment to the rule of law, to the need for greater accountability, to strive for mutually beneficial terms, but obviously criticisms that reflect the need for treaty change or criticise the compromising realities that have arisen as a consequence of EU intransigence, that hinder progress, don't sit comfortably with some.
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I do not believe for one moment three million EU migrant workers dispersed across the UK have caused anything like the affects you describe in your posts.
It is not just EU migrants, 12% of the population is now foreign born that is far too much for an overcrowded country to bear. This does put massive pressure on services and cause much resentment among people who can no longer afford to get on the housing ladder because wages are depressed as well as because the housing supply is not able to absorb the newcomers. Let alone those forgoing treatment because of an overstretched NHS.
The UK needs to start to control inward migration in or out of the EU. We do not have the room or infrastructure. This did not really affect the Brexit vote because the disaffected vote was probably more than cancelled by the incoming vote. But on the whole the population could see that, being in the EU, control of our borders was just another thing that we had lost along with democracy and ability to control virtually anything. Massive resentment is caused when we are unable to expel terrorists because they are 'entitled to a family life'.
You need to have lived in the UK for the past 20 years to feel the sense of frustration with the edicts from non elected EU Beaurocrats that have had adverse affects on our national life. Added to the the near certainty that the EU would never reform and become democratic, it was easy to see why the nation voted out. The areas voting 'in' were those who were gaining a larger proportion of the national pie.
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** EDITED - **
This message was last edited by eos_moderators on 11/7/2016 10:03:00 PM.
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For heavens sake perry
Thats the problem with modern debate, as soon as anyone suggests that immigration is a potential economic drain, they are accused of racism.
** EDITED - Against forum rules **
This message was last edited by eos_moderators on 11/7/2016 10:04:00 PM.
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Close ain't close enough.
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IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.
THANK YOU.
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On Radio Four today was an interview with the director of a developing and successful engineering company near Cambridge who planned to expand their business in the UK before the Brexit vote and take on an additional 160 staff. Their products are in high demand in Europe.
After the vote to leave the EU they have had to shelve their plans because of market uncertainty.
It became clear in the piece that this company recruited graduate engineers from Spain because it was impossible to find suitably qualified people in Britain. They now have decided to relocate to Spain and expand their business there, confident that qualified engineers of European nationality will in the future be available to employ and they will have guaranteed access to the single market.
I believe this company’s direction of travel will be repeated up and down the nation of Britain in the coming years. It is a sad fact repeated in the interview that young British people do not have either the education or inclination to follow certain career paths. Outside the EU it will become impossible for British companies to recruit suitable qualified staff without free movement of labour. Quotas and work visas will not encourage people to relocate without the certainty of a secure working life in the country.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 07/11/2016.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Only the other day a chart was put out on the media showing what areas have changed by mass immigration, and not by the people from the EU, the white Lady reporter was told to get out of the area because it belonged to them.
I cant post the chart on here, don't know why, it will be easy to look up though, it went something like this, I don't have all the figues correct...Ten years ago Croydon was 85% white, now its 55% white, the chart named about 15 towns and pretty much all had the same results.
It even showed a Rossie's ice cream seller in the van with a full black outfit and slits for the eyes serving another muslim child, check it out and if you do, check the so called ice sellers hand, do they look like a womans hand?
Now any MP who wanted to stay in the EU could see this and know the problems England is facing, but they are afraid to say anything and admit it.
Some time ago I sold 3 cars to 'Belgium's', I asked them where they came from, it was plain to see even with your eyes shut tight they came from somewhere other then anywhere inside the EU, lets say Iraq, no doubt they did cross Belgium on there way to the UK.
I take note that almost everyone who doesn't live in the UK now says the UK doesn't have this problem and can take millions more for humanitys sake, go into any UK hospital, our local one has now got 36 different language's on the board, I don't see French / Spanish / Italian and so on.
So go ahead and call me racist, which is the new word from people who cant see the truth.
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And racially motivated crimes only occur in the UK.after Brexit.
Estepona woman arrested for spraying African child with insecticide
The woman has shown racial hatred of her nieghbours for two years
In a bizarre case in Estepona, in the province of Málaga, a 44-year-old woman faces charges of racial hatred she repeatedly threatened and insulted her African neighbours over a period of two years, being reported to the police on three occasions.
However, past investigations proved inconclusive until the latest episode, in which the woman knocked on the door of the family home and, when it was opened, ran away down the corridor to the safety of her own apartment. Once inside she shouted insults at her neigbour and his family, and it is also reported that she sprayed one of his children with insecticide.
Despite it having taken so long for this particular woman to be arrested, the police urge victims of any kind of hatred, be it on the grounds, of race, religion, nationality, sexual tendencies, disabilities or any other reason, to report them as quickly as possible in order to put a stop to this kind of behviour.
For more regional news consult the Andalucía edition of Spanish News Today.
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** EDITED - Off thread - reply to previously edited post**
This message was last edited by eos_moderators on 11/7/2016 10:05:00 PM.
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Please do not turn this thread into a thread on racism. Please stay on thread and discuss BREXIT. Racism and immigration are two very different topics.
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EOS Moderators
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I haven't looked at this thread for a while but seem to get loads of emails telling me there are new posts.
Usual nonsense about free movement. Firms are able to re-locate and how they have to go to Europe to recruit sufficient engineers, etc. So what happened Tony Blair's Education, Education, Education? Loads of people doing degrees in irrelevance and sucking in qualified people, with no incentive for companies to run apprenticeship schemes. There's little help for younger British people, not allowing EU citizens to get free University Education in Scotland or UK Student loans then leave the country.
The PM is in India and has agreed to easier visas for Indian Businessmen but not Students. She also asks that India be more willing take back their nationals who are illegally in the UK.
So when we are out of the EU we can then have Fair movement of people from any country in the world on the same basis not the totally out of balance situation we are in now. Maybe we will allow more students and re-instate rules about working in the UK after graduation.
SAfter brexit employers will be ale to look globally for the best most skilled people. They also will no longer have to prioritise an EU citizen over a less qualified UK citizen as they have to now. I'm sure that happens all over Europe, contries like Germany giving people from other countries skilled jobs in preference to German Nationals..
This message was last edited by MikeandHelen on 08/11/2016.
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Mickeyfinn,
Your point re undersupply of engineers, isn't this a classic case to bring focus on the need for Govts across Europe to adequately forward plan and make provision for apprenticeships and educational strategies to build national skill sets and diversify economies so as not to be too reliant on migrants, or run the risk of swiftly losing skilled labour on a large scale which also compromises member state economies?
As for companies accessing the EU markets in the interim, I thought that lower sterling rates were acting as incentive for greater export opportunities rather than the opposite?
In terms of companies longer term investment strategies are you suggesting that there aren't equal risks attached to movements away from the UK just at the time when they are now looking to expand trading opportunities?
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Ads. It's clearly the case that unless Britain accepts free movement, access to the European free market is unlikely. Since May has made it clear free movement will end for the UK after Brexit. Skill shortages are not the fault of the EU. National governments are to blame for almost all the negative comments on this thread.
Companies have to make long term choices. If they relocate now to Europe free market access is guaranteed. The current short term advantage with lower Sterling is not a factor for sound forward business planning. Britain is likely to suffer higher inflation in 2017 onwards. Carney has already hinted interest rates rises will be used to reduce it. Sterling will rise in that event.
It is an undeniable fact that Britain needs labour, skilled and unskilled from outside it's own borders to thrive. If movement of labour is made more difficult or uncertain companies will go to where that is not a factor.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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It's clearly the case that unless Britain accepts free movement, access to the European 'free market' is unlikely.
'Single market' ?
As usual when something is quoted as being 'clearly the case' it is no such thing.
Forget about the single market. We intend to be a free nation. Think in terms of a tariff free zone. This is what we have at the moment and it is increasingly difficult to see how the EU would negociate away from it without damaging EU countries.
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It became clear in the piece that this company recruited graduate engineers from Spain because it was impossible to find suitably qualified people in Britain.
I believe this company’s direction of travel will be repeated up and down the nation of Britain in the coming years. It is a sad fact repeated in the interview that young British people do not have either the education or inclination to follow certain career paths.
'I believe' means nothing. There are plenty of people who believe that natural selection is wrong.
Despite the snobbishnes in the media, politics, legal profession and arts, the UK is still able to produce first class professional engineers. This has more to do with the professional associations than government decisions, because engineers are under represented in government. Mrs May has been in India, The government there wants more access for Indian students to study engineering in the UK.
If the business is moving to Spain it might be for all sorts of reasons including the fact, that with high unemployment in Spain, labour as well as professionally qualified staff is much cheaper.
T (BSc, CEng, MIEE)
This message was last edited by tteedd on 08/11/2016.
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A delegation is on their way to Norway to see how a 'Norway style' deal can work in the UK. This is no surprise and is the most likely outcome of Brexit. We will be out of the EU but still have full access to the single market and there will be Freedom of Movement for EU nationals into the UK and vice versa. That still satisfies the referendum. All we have to do is leave the EU. There was no prescription attached to the vote.
The government does recognise that finding a way to limit EU migration is and has been an issue for a long time. The negotiation will be based on the UK triggering the emergency brake that David Cameron negotiated with the compromise being the UK will still pay the same level of EU contributions rather than the reduced rate that Norway pays.
Of course leavers will not be happy, but the vote wasn't about making people happy.
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Since May has made it clear free movement will end for the UK after Brexit
Could be an ulterior motive in her doing that, if Mrs May did somehow manage to stop most of the free movement it might be that she wants our own large companies, and small ones, to really get to grips with training up our own people to do the jobs that we now have to look elsewhere for the skills.
Never presume that just because she is not telling at the moment, she isn't thinking big in the background.
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The government does recognise that finding a way to limit EU migration is and has been an issue for a long time.
EU immigration into the UK is not the main problem, the problems are the ones who say they are from the EU just because they walked to, and stopped in France from every other country in the world.
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Despite the snobbishnes in the media, politics, legal profession and arts, the UK is still able to produce first class professional engineers
I have no idea if that is true or not. It was the CEO of an engineering company in Cambridge who claimed that. The lady said on national radio they could not recruit suitable engineering graduates within the UK and needed to recruit from Europe in particular Spain where there are many. They even had one such Spanish engineer on the program who confirmed that.
Here once again we have an example of how supporters of Brexit are in total denial of the consequences of what they wished for.
Here is another case. The makers of Toblerone the pyramid shaped chocolate bar have announced this morning that their bars in the UK will now have every other pyramid piece of chocolate missing because of Brexit and the costs of weakened Sterling. I kid you not. Heres a pic.http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-37904703
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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The sooner the day that folks residing in the UK can see large buildings with 'Technical College', 'Skills Training Centre' or similar over the door, the better, but don't hold your breath.
Our young people are being shoveled into University education, that in many cases won't guarantee a job that will generate sufficient income to trigger repayment of their student loan.
Sadly this will still be the case post Article 50, as parents want their kids to have degrees, it's a sort of badge of honour for them, what about degree status for advanced skills qualifications?
TrINING
_______________________
IF YOU WISH TO QUOTE ANY OF MY POSTS PLEASE DO SO IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND NOT JUST A FEW SELECTED WORDS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.
THANK YOU.
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