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I struggle to work out how someone in Tallinn holding a Euro in their hand feels on par with someone in Berlin doing the same.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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I struggle to work out how someone in Tallinn holding a Euro in their hand feels on par with someone in Berlin doing the same.
Why? For most people it's just something to buy something with. I doubt people in Tallinn or Berlin thinks too much about high finance and exchange rates. Wouldn't it be the same for a redneck in the Mississippi boondocks feeling on par with a Wall Street lawyer in New York? Or a Hispanic in the slums of Puerto Rico on par with a baseball player from the Chicago red sox?
I'm sure to them a dollar is a dollar is a dollar. Brits in Spain (or France or Cyprus or anywhere) quickly gets used to using and thinking in euro but probably think more about exchange rates than any of the others.
And regarding the auditors:
As the EU's independent external auditor, the European Court of Auditors (ECA) looks after the interests of EU taxpayers. It does not have legal powers, but works to improve the European Commission's management of the EU budget and reports on EU finances.
The ECA is the external auditor of the EU.
Now, I haven't checked every website out there but the ECA is always referred to as the independent external auditor.
Apart from UK newspapers who seem to have a vested interest, other sites declare that the accounts are audited and that they are signed off and have been for years.
Any further information to persuade us undecideds would help considerably.
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What the stay mob have dreaded, Boris leading the exit vote will be a deal maker for the exit team now. Just the type of straight talking person that they needed. He will lead us to a fairer future where we decide our own fates and will no doubt be kicking cameron out of downing street to take over the conservative party and running our country. Could all have been different for Cameron, But he opted for a fake renegiotionation deal and he will pay for that when the people tell him to exit politics.
Love you Bozzer quite sexy too xxx
This message was last edited by hughjardon on 21/02/2016.
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Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK
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Back to the auditing of accounts (again) as it seems to crop up in everything as a tool for bashing the EU. Also to the point of how much the EU costs us. It is 0.3% of GDP so I'm reliably informed. Or 1.3% of the total UK budget. Of course, those complaining of the costs never balance it with the benefits.
Anyway - the auditing of accounts
House of Commons Library
Full Fact on EU Audit
Richard Corbett
British Influence
Europa
LibDemVoice
Yes, a fair few links. Hopefully it will put that little matter to bed for a while, though.
And, as stated before, I don't believe half the stuff that comes from either side. Millions of jobs will be lost, pound will crash, trading will cease from the Remain.
EU costs a fortune, accounts haven't been audited, we can go back to bendy bananas and pints and gallons, pound will go up, we can get rid of immigrants and so on from the Out.
And they all say it as if they actually know.
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"Boris leading the exit vote will be a deal maker for the stay team now"
There you go, corrected that for you.
The vast majority of the UK population view Boris as a buffoon. He will galvanise the stay vote.
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Never wrestle with a pig. You will both get dirty and the pig will enjoy it.
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"I struggle to work out how someone in Tallinn holding a Euro in their hand feels on par with someone in Berlin doing the same."
Absoultely. Someone holding a Euro in Tallinn is better off than the person holding a Euro in Berlin.
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Never wrestle with a pig. You will both get dirty and the pig will enjoy it.
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This message was last edited by hughjardon on 22/02/2016.
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Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK
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No Duncan, Boris won two London mayoral elections by tricking his enemies into thinking him to be a baffoon, even Ken Livingstone now admits that he totally underestimated him and that he had been a very good mayor, Churchill was very similar in that he couldn't decide for many years if he was a Liberal or a Conservative, Boris now takes the unoficial 'out' leadership, leaving the very weak link Farage to take up a minor role.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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Looks can be deceiving Boris is in fact a highly intelligent individual that you would not want to get in to a political a
argument with .he tends to tell it how it is this seems to upset other politicians that tend to steer away from the questions that you put to them so if our man Boris ever stands for the leadership of the conservative party he will get my vote ,and if the labour party ever get in to number 10 I will emigrate to Spain full time but this is highly unlikely due to the state the labour party got the the UK in to the last time around so all I can hope for is a No vote so wee can stop the flood of Eastern Europeans that come in to the UK the number stands at 200,000 per month and their is nothing the UK can do to stop it due to the policy that is set Brussels at the moment if you're a foriner that has not paid a penny it to the UK system you can claim the on the Dole /NHS/and get a full pension without paying a penny in its a know facked that the eastern Europeans are legally bringing the grandparents it to the UK registering them for OAP benefits and then sending them back home the government know this and can do nothing to stop it ,I myself at the the age of sixty have been paying it to the system for 44 year's and have been informed that I will not be eligible for a pension untill I reach the age of 70 it doesn't take you long to work out why when you put 2 and 2 together it becomes clear it has got to be a NO vote from me.
This message was last edited by windtalker on 22/02/2016.
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If you're 60 now you will reach state pension age at 66, not 70.
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So tteed, the EEC was to blame for all of the economic ills of the country since 1972 , the Winter of Discontent and probably multiple British embarassments at the Eurovision Song Contest. I can remember the UK when it joined the EEC and watched the programmes about it on TV ( in between power cuts due to miners strikes). I don't know where you where living in Nirvanah in the early 1970's but the UK was a complete and utter basket case. Now I don't think that the EEC/EU is alone responsible for the improvements in the UK economy, far from it, but it is at least arguable that during the 40 odd years of it's existence it has created stability, during which time Spain has moved from dictatorship to democracy, the Berlin Wall came down and Germany was re-united. And to me that's the issue. Arguments about child benefit are irrelevant. It's all about security, confidence and stability and I for one am more than happy to read about Euro arguments about standardising nosie from lawnmowers, when the arguments could be over much more unsettling things.
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Scollins
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Good post scollins. The EU is about far more than petty domestic problems which would exists even if we were outside the EU. There is a big picture and it's that factor this campaign should focus on. The problem sadly is your average Joe down the pub can't grasp it, can't see beyond his own garden gate.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Very arrogant Mickyfinn, you did all but call the 'average Joe down at the pub' a thicko, this is just what the 'out's' need to convince the sceptics that they are right to be so.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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It's a little disconcerting that non of the "ins" are discussing reform or how they consider reform can be achieved if we remain in the EU.
"It's all about security, confidence and stability "....... well there's much reform required before such aspirations can be assured.
To acknowledge the areas in need of reform should not be shyed away from when discussing the requirement to remain within the EU, so come on guys let's have some of these issues identified and potential ways to realistically achieve reform if we were to remain in the EU. Many of those who are undecided need reassurances in this regard.
How many for instance would be willing to support the ALTER - EU campaign that I made reference to in a previous posting?
http://corporateeurope.org/power-lobbies/2015/09/alter-eu-decade-campaigning-transparency-ethics-accountability-and-democracy
http://alter-eu.org/politics-for-people-2014-eu-election-campaign
http://alter-eu.org/stronger-ethics-regulation
This message was last edited by ads on 22/02/2016.
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My point exactly Scollins. The EEC was supposed to lead to Nirvana according to the politicians, not the winter of discontent. As I said they promised a market for our exports and cheap food. We got expensive food and German, Italian and French imports of manufactured goods and as I also said the ballance of trade with the EEC turned negative and has been that way ever since.
Spain moved from dictatorship to democracy before joining the EU. Are you going to claim that the EU overcame Fascism next? In the past year or so lots of EU supporters have started claiming that the EU has kept the peace in Europe. That is a load of nonsense, the peace was kept by NATO and there is no instance of democracies going to war with one another.
The issue is that for the UK the EU is a hopeless economic club, it costs a fortune to belong, it is a non democratic corrupt and wasteful political union. We would be far better off out.
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Usually political change in a stable democratic organisation, or if you like reform,is usually manifest through the pressure of market forces or crisis.
Right now in Europe some reforms are likely because of the migrant crisis. The ideals of the EU founding fathers have been weakened. Their principle of solidarity between Europeans has now been eclipsed by new, very natural need to embrace people around the world suffering devastation and war. We are all after all a human family.
I would argue the EU has provided a level of political stability and peace from the ashes of two world wars, undreamed of in 1945. In a way it’s a victim of its own success. It has responded to change and adapted accomodations when political pressure was applied. Remember Mrs T and her handbag summit, "I want my money back". They gave her it.
Europe has also enjoyed a level of prosperity thought impossible by my parents generation. The single market and subsequent EU treaties have created the political stability, solidarity, free markets and trust that makes that happen.
Reform is an on-going process in the EU it does not stay static, although I would agree it's often like trying to turn round an oil tanker. However one thing is very clear. Outside the club you cannot influence it. The world’s largest trading block on the UK’s doorstep will move on without our input or influence. What the EU does and decides in the future will continue to affect everyone in the UK, without any power or say in that process. It seems to me a very poor arrangement indeed.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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"Spain moved from dictatorship to democracy before joining the EU. Are you going to claim that the EU overcame Fascism next?"
This suggests that I said that the EEC was responsible for Spain's transition. I didn't actually say that, but it certainly assisted Spain's assimilation. Oh, and by the way the reason the UK was flooded with French, Italian and German goods ( not to mention Japanese motor bikes ) was that in the 1970's British manufactured goods were generally almsot entirely unreliable and crap. British Leyland anyone? Imports became exepnsive, of course, because of oil price inflation and devaluations of the pound. The EEC created a market that hitherto the UK was not able to penetrate. Whether the EU has gone too far it's certainly a moot point but until someone comes up with a convincing construct of how an alternative model would perform then the case simply isn't made and from what I have seen there are plenty of "outers" who are happy to throw punches ( whether above or below the belt) but don't offer any solutions.
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Scollins
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I prefer general agument to that aimed at other posters as this is unlikely to infringe Forum Rules. We can all read and decide for ourselves so I am not again going to disect the last reply.
However:
"I have seen there are plenty of "outers" who are happy to throw punches ( whether above or below the belt) but don't offer any solutions."
If you read all my posts on this thread you will see that I was originally pro EEC and voted to stay in at the 75 referendum, but over the years the EEC/EU has shown itself as not fit for purpose especially for the UK and believe 'above the belt' logic gives the only possible choice of vote in the forthcoming election as 'out'.
Every UK prime minister since we entered the EEC has been going to reform the EEC/EU and has not even made a dent on the CAP let alone other areas. If you were to suggest that we disbanded the commission and all its works. Initiated a forum of all classes of people from around the EU to chose the responsibilities of the European Paliament. (I would suggest - International relations, defence and trade at the top level (minutae left to the individual countries)). Everything else left to the existing national Governments.
Then elect a new parliament that actually represents the people of Europe, I would be in favour.
I would also suggest a truely representitive senate chosen the way we chose juries but perhaps that is to utopian (it is also my solution for the house of lords).
Lets pray for a prosperous peaceful future whatever the result of the referendum.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 22/02/2016.
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Both GB45 and I have been here before, but where are the guys who this will really impact on? I reckon that if I have another 15 years left then I will have swum the channel, my son is 37 years old and I very much doubt if he will even bother to vote on this, why the hell are so many of us pontificating on something that our kid's couldn't care a donkey's about?
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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The lack of forethought and forward planning when bringing 28 member states together in such a swift timeframe, without due consideration of the consequences doesn't inspire confidence in the system or those that supposedly "manage" it.
To take ownership of an "oil tanker" let alone 28 of them, without knowledge of how to turn it around is like burying your head in the sand.
It requires immense intellect(s) to solve complex problems, true accountability and transparency to act as reassurance , willingness and flexibility to face and respond to uncomfortable realities and all within a timeframe that doesn't exacerbate existing problem areas. All sadly lacking at present.
Without a realistic plan for reform or a willingness to admit failings is sadly no basis upon which to inspire confidence.
Rhetoric is easy, it's the forward planning and ability and WILLINGNESS to transform a failing system that is required now if confidence is ever to be restored.
This message was last edited by ads on 23/02/2016.
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