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I have no idea of anything that would happen one way or the other...But the only thing I do know is that the so called know-it-all's in power have in the past, and are still doing it on a grand scale now, told SO many lies about everything, is it no wonder that so much uncertainty is coming out...
In short why should we believe in what anyone in power tells us.
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I see on the BBC News today that the French are
Threatening to stop the UK importing and exporting take all our banker and shut down the city of London send all the illegal immigrants over to the UK if we vote to exit the EU .
This message was last edited by windtalker on 03/03/2016.
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Does this not all indicate how confused people are and more importantly how the Politicians can hold a gun to your head when trying to decipher mechansims relating to the EU?
To leave any element associated with exit undefined FROM THE OUTSET, without full transparency and legal implications fully identified to all EU citizens upon joining the EU, is like asking someone to sign an open ended contract without any legal rights or protection to fall back upon.
What does this tell about those upon whom we place our trust, whether you wish to vote in or out?
The lack of EU Commission's accountability, protection of citizens rights, adherence and compliance to ethical standards and rule of law, how best to deal with mass migration and refugees (to establish where required a workable and fair mechanism to distinguish economic migrants from vulnerable refugees ), a mechanism to make large corporations pay their fair share of tax, to make Banks compliant and transparent and accountable not only to their shareholders but also to those whose monies are deposited in their financial institutions, etc. ,all beg questions of those who make and prioritorise decisions on our behalf. These are not little issues to be decided given time, or "reacted to" under crisis, these are major issues that should have been prioritised already.
It beggars belief and identifies major failings of not only the system and ability to reform but also failures of those Parliamentarians in both our own Parliament and the European Parliament to identify effective strategies and forward planning.
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To leave any element associated with exit undefined FROM THE OUTSET, without full transparency and legal implications fully identified to all EU citizens upon joining the EU, is like asking someone to sign an open ended contract without any legal rights or protection to fall back upon.
Yes I agree with that ads. The potential ramifications are huge if Brexit happens because of basic ignorance by the voters. It would be a colossal failure of trust and responsibility by everyone concerned.
Unfortunately the British media, which could provide more information and detail, prefer to stick to their partisan standpoint. An exception is The Economist who do offer a balanced opinion.
It is not understood sometimes by ordinary people that no country can survive in the globalised world today without membership of one trade organisation or another. Trade relationships cannot exist in isolation. There must be close political and diplomatic links as well. The UK has now secured a special status within the EU. The UK cannot now be called upon to join or take part in any further integration process. That much has been made clear by the commission and it's legally binding, despite the ‘out’ campaign claiming otherwise.
So as I have said previously if it’s accepted the UK has to be members of a world trade group. Then it may as well stick to the devil it know rather than risk the economic shock that is bound to happen if it leaves.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 03/03/2016.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Mickeyfinn, does your observation imply that British voters will be voting to sign an open ended contract, so to speak?
Does the following " The UK has now secured a special status within the EU. The UK cannot now be called upon to join or take part in any further integration process." now imply that this will exempt us from having our say with regard to influencing major reform of the EU if we were to vote to remain in?
Wont this be used ultimately as a mechanism to deny British citizens of their rights to gain reform from within?
In which case will we be party to a trade organisation upon which we have little influence, hence the open ended contract reference?
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No ads. The special status agreement only relates to further integration measures and membership of the Euro. It also provides a veto if fiteen other states agree, and rules on migrant benefits. The UK will still play her full equal status membership part within the EU process and can contribute to further EU reforms.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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I see on the BBC News today that the French are
Threatening to stop the UK importing and exporting take all our banker and shut down the city of London send all the illegal immigrants over to the UK if we vote to exit the EU .
Just looked at this news and it looks like a whole lot of "Could Woulds and Maybe's" with quite a large dose of blackmail chucked into the pot for good measure, don't suppose for one moment that our contribution, or the maybe lack of it has anything to do with it.....
Kinda like to the dirt poor girl who married Trump..."What first attracted you to the multi billionaire Donald?"
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Well as for the UK there is currently very little interest in this referendum, for all intents and purposes it reminds me of the build up to a council election. Our own son has said that he won't vote because neither side have presented their case in a manner where he could make a reasoned decision, the normally politically motivated folk that I know have said exactly the same. I'm not interested in either Cameron's or Corbyn's respective opinions, neither of them will suffer whichever way the vote goes, as is the case with me and mine, so don't expect a free for all at the polling stations.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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some interesting points of view but for me too many variabales unanswered questions, guesses, scaremongering etc.
thread has become stale and just as boring and useful as the USA presidential nominations
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Apathy is bound to rule in this referendum. The average Brit in my experience could not care less about Europe never mind its politics. Britain is an insular nation that believes it still matters in the world whatever it does.
If the turn out is low then the politically committed to leave will win.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Yes I agree Mickyfinn, however UK expats residing/working in other parts of the EU shouldn't get too phased about UK residents who couldn't care less about expat wishes, by what I read on this forum it works both ways. I reckon that the student vote will be a huge 'in', as will the public sector's (whoops), the 'football flag' (St George's) brigade won't vote in great numbers but the 'grey' middle class vote is anyone's guess. To quote the Duke of Wellington, 'it will be a very close run thing'.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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Forget any reforming from the inside.
Brexit will mean we lose influence??
Britain has opposed the eu 72 times in 20 years – and been overuled 72 times.. FACT...
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Not a FACT at all. Just shows complete ignorance of how the EU parliament works. There are no national parties in the EU parliament so how can a country oppose anything? Each UK party joins a European party. The Conservatives are in the European Conservatives and Reform party which includes MEPs from Poland, Germany, Denmark and others.
Labour is in the Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats party which includes MEPs from Romania, Slovenia, France and 8 other countries.
Ukip are in the Europe of Freedom and Democracy party which includes ones from France, Germany, Denmark and so on.
Get the picture? Britain (as a country) cannot oppose anything in the EU parliament. The parties they belong to can vote and the ones the Conservative party belong to have been successful 63% of the time.
So, if you have a real FACT then please join in the debate.
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Correct. People seem to think all those parties in Britain who oppose each other get together in Brussels (or Strasbourg) and stand up under the Union flag united against the nasty foreigners. That those other 27 countries join under their flags and vote UK down all the time. No, it doesn't work like that. If you think of it logically, you could say Britain proposes something (under the Conservative party alliance) and gets voted down by Britain (under the Socialist banner).
In which case, you could say Britain has been successful in voting down proposals by the EU or you could say Britain has failed in getting proposals through. All depends on which side of the fence you are sitting on, I suppose.
Oh, and the MEPs don't even propose anything. The commissioners (20 of them which includes commissioners from the UK) propose it, it is then looked at by the European Council (also including UK councillors) and then passed for voting to the MEPs where they can propose amendments or pass it as read. Normally half a dozen amendments are proposed before anything is passed. During those periods the legislation can be rejected if a majority vote against it.
That's when it goes to the National parliament (in our case Westminster) where it is voted on. It cannot be rejected once it goes to this vote but can be passed back for amendment or an exemption requested, as in the case of the open borders, the requirement to adopt the euro, the Charter of Fundamental Human Rights and the Area of Freedom, Security and Justice act, all of which have UK opt outs. Other countries have different opt outs.
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marieday,
Thanks for that, I had no idea how the EU worked, and reading some of the other posts neither do the self appointed experts, actually it sounds very fair, but why aren't the politicians and media telling us this? However I will promise you this, if I have not been convinced one way or the other I will go to the polling station and spoil my paper.
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I'm Spartacus, well why not?
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The commissioners (20 of them which includes commissioners from the UK) propose it, it is then looked at by the European Council (also including UK councillors)
None of whom are elected.
That's when it goes to the National parliament (in our case Westminster) where it is voted on.
Virtually no EU measure sees light of day to be voted on in parliament.
Most are passed directly into law.
They are supposed to be scrutinised in committee but this is an impossible job and, even when the committee alerts, the matters still do not come back to parliament. Sometimes MP's (when they are allowed a question) raise some objection but this never translates to anything meaningful.
Would that we behaved like some other EU countries and took no notice. But the various departments in the UK spring into action and iterpret the 'laws' sometimes overzealously.
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'All countries have to belong to some trade block to survive.'
Tell that to those that do not.
Most countries belong to the WTO (a few in the middle east do not).
If push came to shove WTO rules would ensure that we and the EU behave sensibly. But really there is no suggestion that any party would behave badly given BREXIT.
It will take some time before a vote to leave would affect anything as the parties negociated.
My opinion, but I would expect that during this time we would be given 'new' terms and told to re-run the vote and be good guys like Eire and Denmark were.
The EU cannot play Mr Nasty as the scaremongers would have us believe as the balance of trade is heavily in the EU's favour. They would do far more damage to themselves. Also, as we know you could not get 27 members to agree to it.
But lets play devils advocate and assume they took the damage on the nose and did play Mr Nasty.
Then WTO rules would apply and the import duties (if any) would be less than the normal variation in the value of sterling, added to which we could protect British jobs by reciprocal measures.
But we could protect ourselves, even from this, and rejoin EFTA which has access to EU markets.
Added to all this we would be free of our £51M per day contributions and have regained our democracy.
As long as the trade ballance is in the EU's favour we are in a win win situation if we leave.
If it was not a win win situation we should still leave to regain our democracy and freedom from this unrepresentative and corrupt organisation.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 03/03/2016.
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Sorry tteedd but there's quite a bit in there that's wrong.
Yes, it will take some time to renegotiate the terms. 2 years as laid down in Clause 50 of the Lisbon treaty. So, 2 years to sort it all out.
We could be part of EFTA (like Switzerland) and rejoin the EEA. Same rules on tariffs (none), freedom of movement, EU regulations etc with no say in any decision making. And it would still cost us.
Then you blame others for scaremongering but claim it would save "£51 million pounds a day". Please don't make up things as it does your cause no good. 2015 UK contributions was almost £17.5 billion. It received a rebate of £4.6 billion and spending in UK out of that budget was £4.5 billion. That brings down the net cost to the UK of £8.5 billion. Out of that, 1 billion pounds went on foreign aid which makes up part of the 0.7% GDP we are committed to so the UK would have spent that anyway .
All in all, UK spent £7.5 billion on the EU. That's well less than half the figure you came up with which is blatant scaremongering and playing fast and loose with figures.
That amount, by the way, is about how much the government has pledged to spend on pre school care for kids to allow Mums back to work, just to put it in context. Or about half of what we're going to spend on foreign aid.
As we have now entered the name calling, false facts and playing the patriotic card (the last refuge of a scoundrel according to Samuel Johnson in 1775) then it's pointless continuing the debate, epecially on a site which is supposed to be about living in Spain where we will be affected rather differently to those residing in UK.
Goodbye.
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Just a thought if the UK left the EU we would not be invited to enter the Eurovision song contest that would be a terrible thing to happen ,who would the Europeans give no point's to .
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Lets do a poll guys
Out press LIKE
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Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK
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