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Let's say we have another Referendum ,and the INs win ,presumably they would have a plan on how to control emigration and free movement from the EU to appease the Outs how would they go about it with the no comprise attitude that the EU Mafia has.
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The remoaners plan is to leave it all as it is. Obviously they don't live in areas that are overun with migrants. They are happy to hand over their money to bureaucrats. The EUSSR is heaven to them. There is even one person on here that should move to Russia, everything he spouts is a communists dream.
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EU officials actually are usually former elected politicians who have distinguished themselves in political careers in their own state. They are appointed to their current role by all heads of member governments and their position ratified by the EU parliament, so let’s give them some status.
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Neil and Glenys Kinnock?
You cannot be serious.😂
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** EDITED - Inappropriate or offensive **
This message was last edited by eos_moderators on 11/17/2016 12:32:00 PM.
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** EDITED - inappropriate or offensive **
This message was last edited by eos_moderators on 11/17/2016 12:32:00 PM.
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So where did I mention racism?
People are entiltled to their views
Maybe a few should look back in hisory and see what happend and the tensions in the UK towards many that is happening now towards men, women and children who are not British citizens
All we get is immigration, immigration, immigration and it is not a good place to be. Many still dont get it that immigartion is NOT the UEs problem and Brexit will NOT fix it.
Maybe we have nothing else to debate about brexit because we ahev NO IDEA
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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Jarvi, it does not sound to me like Halifax is overrun with migrants...
The main ethnic group in Halifax is white (87%), followed by Pakistani (10%). Over 90% of people aged 16–74 are employed, mostly full-time. 64% of residents had qualifications. Halifax is home to a large south asian community mainly of British Pakistanis. The Illingworth / Mixenden areas, consists mostly of white, indigenous Protestant residents.
Tadd, you are spot on. It is a shame that all the hard work to foster anti-descrimination over a generation is unwinding. The referendum has given nothing to the UK but a license for some people (including some subscribers here) to vent their fears about those who are different to them.
Leavers, I just cannot take you seriously. You need to convince the country that you are not xenophobes because the longer you don't the more us remoaners (as you call us) are going to lobby and shout that Brexit cannot proceed.
Al, why is it that there is a whole class of Brits who feel it is alright to try to bully others? Why is it even acceptable to refer to people on this thread who voted to remain in a derogatory fashion.
EOS moderators, you need to show some leadership and step up to the plate. Other social media sites (twitter, facebook google etc) are banning 'alt-right' (Members of the alt-right movement differ on many points, but are generally outspoken in their attacks on multiculturalism, globalisation and immigration.) Where are you on this topic?
By all means do not ban free speach, thought etc. but if posters cannot show respect for entire groups of people how can you expect them to show respect for individuals.
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It appears that the only topic of interest now is Immigration. There is only so much you can say on the topic of immigration without it getting heated and sometimes being interpreted as racism or xenophobia and at other times actually representing racism and xenophobia. It is not acceptable on EOS to defend either. Immigration control does not need to be fueled by xenophobia, doing so will make Britain a terrible place to be. Those who chose to remain, which are practically the same number as those who chose to leave, deserve just as much respect as those who won the referendum.
So please respect everyone's postion, defend your position with arguments that are well-founded and NOT leaning towards racism or xenophobia, as niether will be tolerated. It is possible to discuss immigration without being xenophobic or racist, by the way. Please don't generalise with such delicate topics. Please remember over 50% of the UK's immigration is actually not from the EU so we hope that wasn't your only motivation in voting Brexit... If the thread turns sour we will inevitably just lock it permanently.
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EOS moderators, thank you very much for your comments which I support 100%. It would be a shame to have to lock this thread because both sides to the equation have for the most part been presenting genuine and serious comments.
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Totally agree with the balanced and sensible opinions of the mods. It’s often the habit these days on social media of a minority of people who seem to derive perverse pleasure from attacking the messenger rather than the message.
It was so back in the day in the school playground. Bullies looked for differences in people they could exploit to satisfy their own deeper insecurities.
It’s Ok to be different and it’s OK to think and have opinions outside the mainstream as long as it is not destructive or hurtful to individuals. People are the same everywhere. Whether they are migrants, Muslims, Catholics Later day Adventist’s, refugees, pink, brown yellow or green or even Presidents. If you don’t believe that then it is you who has the problem.
Back to Brexit. The government is thought to be quietly drafting a basic bill that its lawyers believe would be hard to amend in the event of the Supreme Court appeal failing.
Constitutional experts have now told the Lib Dems there is no obstacle to adding extra clauses to such any article 50 legislation, which could force the government to publish a white paper detailing how it plans to approach talks with the other EU member-states – and even offer voters a second referendum. The Lib Dems have over 100 peers in the House of Lords but only 4 in the commons.
The Lib Dems have also committed themselves to fighting the next election in 2020 or sooner on keeping the UK’s membership of the EU.
So it looks like the Lib Dems are emerging as the remainders best political hope.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Mickeyfinn
It is obvious from your observations that you want a second referendum which many perceive as not accepting the will of the people from the first referendum result. How can the Libdems therefore suggest a solution which appears to retrospectively add extra clauses that in their application forces Govt to potentially compromise their negotiations with the EU and at the same time ignore the result of the first referendum by calling for a second?
Isn't this in effect saying to the electorate we don't recognise the result of the first referendum ,( they have openly identified that they want to remain in the EU and will do all that they can to ensure this eventuality), we don't allow the Govt to follow through the will of the people by disallowing the Govt the right to take the required time to adequately define their best strategy for exiting the EU and in so doing wherever possible reach a fair compromise to protect their citizens and business interests?
But alongside this there needs to be a cold hard practical review of the current systems in place to define shortfalls of labour in the UK, define a strategy to protect British nationals and foreign nationals alike, who currently live and work here, but in a manner that is realistically able to be accomplished.
So such practical aspects as realistic forward planning to take account of shortfalls of skilled labour, to ensure they are better managed in terms of educational provision to incentivise school leavers into the various professional disciplines, doctors. nurses, accountants, engineers, IT, research scientists, etc. But also better plan to cater for shortfalls in practical skills such as electricians, plumbers, care workers, agricultural labour, .... all manner of ancillary staff required to sustain the country. Then there are further analyses re seasonal work, part-time work etc, but all with a view to gaining a far better picture of the country's needs and shortfalls.
But as we all know, this takes time and commitment and no doubt requires better systems to monitor and plan for both short term and longer term shortfalls, to better cater for emerging areas of growth etc etc.
And then we come to the area of free movement of labour and how this realistically ties into this wider perspective.
How does the Govt and EU accommodate a balance between the real needs of member states without on the one hand placing immense strain on their infrastructure, their over capacity which may place strain on their benefits systems etc, and on the other hand strip member states of their skilled/ unskilled labour forces?
IMHO, this requires both EU and Govt to work together to better forward plan but without restrictions that currently inhibit such flexibility to adapt to changing needs but also better protect cohesion and harmony between member states.
At present the system appears to be failing in the real practicalities to achieve the above, and intransigence from whatever quarter it may come is not the best way forward. Flexibility and greater communication to enhance forward planning, to develop better mechanisms to monitor and resolve shortfalls, to better resolve pressures on infrastructure and social structures, whether these be short-term or longer-term need to be developed.
To leave the system uncoordinated and disjointed without flexibility to adapt where necessary, to better accommodate and plan for growth, etc appears a recipe for disaster.
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That is really interesting Micky. I believe that it will be impossible for the Government to pass legislation that avoids disclosure about their position and plan before Triggering A.50.
A second referendum on the terms of Brexit and/or the New Trading Terms etc are reasonable but will probably create more problems than it solves. It will be up to Parliament to scrutinse and vote on (with the best interests of the country at heart) a new Relationship with the EU.
More importantly a second referendum on Brexit itself is unlikely as much as we might want it. People will most likely vote the same way and those that did not vote probably will do that again...not vote. So we will be in the same position as now.
The important thing is that we do not allow the Government to just trigger A.50 without a plan or without going public on the plan. The UK cannot afford a hard Brexit, it just makes no sense to do that while touting for other Trade Agreements. We might get some, but why have separate agreement with Canada (for example) when they have already said it will be the same as CENA. India is not offering a great deal if one is available at all. Likewise China. Will a bilateral deal with the USA happen given Trump's anti Trade Agreement stance be even possible, the terms might be so tipped in the USA's favour that we can't find common ground.
There appears to be two types of Brexitors: those who want as little and possibly no connection with the EU and those who I will call Reformists. The former appear to believe that we are too important to the EU for the EU to not give us a Tariff free entry to the single market on current terms but without Free Movement of people, without contribution and without EU Regulation. I don't believe that will ever happen. The second group (Reformers) want major reform to the EU mostly based around Free Movement of People.
Remainers wanted to reform the EU from within. To be honest I don't know if we could have ever done that from within the EU and I may ahve to concede that to the Brexitors. The UK creating reform by being on the outside or having a credible threat in the form of Brexit of being outside may actually have a chance. It really depends on how the other nations of the EU feel. They do have their own issues around Free Movement. Eastern Europe however feels they benefit from Free Movement and it will take alot to get them on board.
Bottom line is we are a very long way to making snap decisions about Brexiting. We have lived with uncertainty for five months and other than the pound taking a pasting life has gone on. The UK's prosperity, especially around the change in employment, must be a real eye opener for Brexitors. Most of the new jobs and new employment in the UK has been filled by EU nationals because there are no UK national to take the roles on.
The longer we wait to Trigger A.50 the more clear the position and solutions will become. The referendum was advisory and more importantly did not state what it should look like and when it should take place. The Government must flow with the will of the majority but must also rule for the Country. While I don't expect Brexitors to agree with it, they may need to be very patient.
I favour reform of the EU. From this point there is no going back to what it was. I do not accept Hard Brexit or quick Brexit.
This message was last edited by perrypower1 on 17/11/2016.
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Our postings crossed Perrypower! Look forward to your response and in the meantime I will reflect on your posting...
This message was last edited by ads on 17/11/2016.
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Thats just it, while the debate is going on here by the folk who voted to stay in, who were out voted by those to leave, and have no interest in what the others have to say, all we get is 'Show us your plan' or 'It wont ever happen', when someone told of the exit plan from Mrs May a few posts back, that was even ridiculed, she comes up with something, yet the folk who want to stay only come up with thousands of unknowns, and super speculations as to what will happen....And they are correct.
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You and I ads are not so far apart. Over a bottle of wine or your fvaourite tipple I have no doubts we could solve the ills of the UK.
In hindsight I wish the Referendum had been to; stay in an unReformed EU or; to Demand Reform of the UE within a two year period else we leave. This may have resulted in a clearer picture of the way forward and might have been a real wake up call to the EU that it is failing to do everything it could for its populace.
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Baz, it appears you are a hardliner Brexitor. I respect that but do not support it and will lobby against it. I need to know what, where and when. I will not be fobbed off with, "We will get the best deal that is available". That means nothing. Brexit means Brexit is nothing. Put some substance on my plate and I might be able to support it.
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Like it or not, right or wrong, protectionism is slowing creeping back into global politics, Brexit, Trump, perhaps these voters have taken a lead.
Next tests are Italian vote, French , Austrian and even German elections.
Bond yields are rising in Europe as prices fall, Italy for one still has massive debt.
Complete integration, a little like Communism, appears to be a great concept in theory but does not work wuite so well in practice, as it seems to benefit the few not the masses.
Whilst businesses continue to move manufacturing abroad to take advantage of cheap and almost slave labour to profit more from selling goods on credit to those in their domestic market who are being made redundant by this globalisation cannot be sustainable long term economically.
Dont we all need to create jobs at home, which will have a consequence of raising consumer prices, because of better regulation and labour protection.
From the social aspect, surely most of the global conflicts currently happening around the world are due to an inability to integrate and are almost tribal in their nature.
Whether the basis be racial, religious, culture or creed, we have not yet cracked the code of social and economic integration and cohesion.
The human race is has an unbelievable ability to create and develop new technologies, improve our physical health and longevity but this comes with the expense of divisions in social structure and health problems now created by our minds getting too old for our bodies ensuring mire of us suffer eventually from dementure.
Every apparent improvement provides a consequence and as humans we need to work out with open debate how to improve things NOT just accept the views of our churches, our businesses and sometimes our leaders and politicians.
We all need to take more responsibility for ourselves and our fellow humans rather than finding someone to blame.
This is not necessarily a Socialist view it is moralistic.
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In hindsight I wish the Referendum had been to; stay in an unReformed EU or; to Demand Reform of the UE within a two year period else we leave. This may have resulted in a clearer picture of the way forward and might have been a real wake up call to the EU that it is failing to do everything it could for its populace.
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Derrrr, Perry, is t that exactly what DC offered us, a reformed EU or we get the right to vote.
Obviously 52% of the country thought the EU offered no real reform and were intransigent.
48% of the country either thought we could or should continue to negotiate for a better deal OR they were happy with what the EU currently stood for.
What % of the 48% accounted for each of the above.
Like Brexiters who voted for different reasons.
Remoaners also voted for different reasons.
We could never establish a referendum that would ask exactly what we all wanted.
We all want the best deal for the UK and to continue trade and sensible immigration and a level of freedom of movement of LABOUR.
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perripower
Where does it say in my post that Halifax is over run with immigrants? - No where. I know how many people live in my town, I also know al the percentages that you have quoted thank you. I also have many good friends of white, black and asian origin, some which were born in Halifax and others that were born elsewhere in the world. Many of those friends voted for Brexit as they have the same beliefs that they do not want to be ruled by the EUSSR. That is the problem with SOME of the remainers, they think that ALL of us that voted Brexit are un-educated and rascist.
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