BREXIT

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27 Oct 2016 9:56 AM by Destry Star rating in MYOB . 289 posts Send private message

Big Al, In the 1950's we had an acute shortage of people to do jobs that needed doing, these days we have a huge surplus of people who won't entertain any type of work because they are far better off on benefits, We are past masters of providing university courses that award degrees in subjects that many of us struggle to understand the worth of, what ever happened to technical colleges and skills training?

The 20th century brought with it two world wars and a Spanish Flu pandemic that killed more people than WW1, this solved any possibility of over population, hopefully we are not going in that direction again. Our own bone idle waste of space benefits claimants are our problem, however we should not be Shangri la for all of the EU's work shy.

What gets to me is the reluctance of the indigenous populous of, historical industrial areas to accept the resurgence of any type of industry, coal mining comes to mind. I attempted to explain the need for a boyant private sector in order to fund the public sector to a head teacher, his answer was that his salary deductions would fund his pension and what had the great unwashed got to do with a professional such as him? Sadly he used to be a maths teacher, god help us.       



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27 Oct 2016 10:27 AM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

There will always be bad examples in any society. but the skill comes from disincentivising bad practice and behaviour through a system that adequately deals with those who continue to behave that way, incentivises them into work, has a forward looking Govt to respond to changing circumstances,  makes those in positions of responsibility better accountable, etc.

We all need to be willing to improve in that regard and review the system ( but never at the expense of those who genuinely are in need such as the disabled etc) , but to stereotype a whole society because of a few bad eggs ( if they are few that is!!), is not good  or realistic however!

The benefit culture is definitely on the change in the UK but that is not to say that Govt shouldn't do more to make  better provision for work and retraining opportunities...( totally agree on the need for more technical colleges).

And this is where we come back full circle to the impact from uncontrolled free movement that needs to better examine the impact on incentives ( and disincentives to prevent abuse of the social system) and preplanning in the interim for facilities etc  necessary to retrain nationals alongside an intake of migrants, but in a far better coordinated fashion.





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27 Oct 2016 10:27 AM by baz1946 Star rating. 2327 posts Send private message

When the remainers, knock the leavers, over 'Controlling Immigration' which they seem to believe was thee 'Only' reason for the 'Out Vote' they have it all wrong, but of course that won't ever be admitted.

Everyone I speak to is not bothered about the immigration from within the EU, meaning the genuine countries that have joined up, what everyone I speak to has a problem with is the so called immigration from people who come from many other countries who without a doubt come to the UK for the easy life they get, and they do because it shows up all the time over housing, benefits, medical and so on.

Apart from the rubbish that comes here from within the EU who want to live how they have lived in the country that they messed up, for the most part they want to work, which is proved by the fact that they do the jobs that the Brits won't do, as in bending over all day picking carrots for one instance and the many other dirty jobs.

Someone tell me why we want people from Somalia, and countries not unlike this, why do we want Africans here who were content not to work in Africa while watching others do the hard graft.

I only know a few French people here, and they came over at least 30 plus years ago, I know 1 Spanish person who has  been here 40 plus years, a couple from Israel, a couple of Bulgarians who I will say own and run a good business, it would seem we are not over inundated with people from decent countries within the EU. Yes and I am aware we have thousands from the likes of Poland, and also aware of the towns that have the greatest influx.

Seems to me that we had an agreement for free movement through, and into EU countries, just because you walked to France from some country with 'Stan' on the end of it does not give you the right to come anywhere in the EU, and most certainly not to the UK.

So to you 'Remainers' we 'Leavers' voted out mainly to stop the EU controlling us with stupid rules and rubbish laws.

 





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27 Oct 2016 10:50 AM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

The reality is most British people are the descendants of immigrants, the Anglo Saxons having died out long ago.

Large parts of SW France were once part of England and if you could find a boat, free movement existed as far back as the Middle Ages. My own ancestors came from France after the Norman Conquest.

Mankind has been moving around the globe since creation and will continue so to do until the end of the earth.

This principle of ‘little Britain’ exists only in the limited vision of people who refuse to embrace the wider world and the infinite possibilities and contribution immigration presents. If the government were honest they would admit the impossibility of preventing or controlling it.

It is impossible to control the movement of people determined enough to move to another country for a better life. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain. The USA has tried that for years but the Mexicans keep coming and keep finding employment.

The only realistic way to stop immigration is a trashed economy and severely limited social benefits. These things will probably come to pass eventually after Brexit as Britain’s economy declines and the state runs out of money.

My point is centuries of immigration has created the nation of Britain you see today

 

 


This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 27/10/2016.

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Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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27 Oct 2016 11:19 AM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

Your method Mickeyfinn without any controls or flexibility to respond ( when not at war,)  risks de-stabilising countries especially when there is lack of planning or adequate forethought. 

The inferences re "little Britain" and "protectionist" , "not embracing the wider world", " trashed economy" , "severely limited social benefits", "state runs out of money" are gross exaggerations and do not reflect reality and couldn't be further from the truth as we endeavour to embrace both the EU and the wider global economy.





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27 Oct 2016 11:19 AM by BigAl2015 Star rating. 194 posts Send private message

Destry

I understand what you are trying to say, but this impression that we have a huge surplus of people who won't entertain any type of work is not correct, it also tends to offend those that are genuinely looking for work, for example the thousands of redundant BHS employees.

Please can we not label every unemployed person as being not willing to work?





Like 1      
27 Oct 2016 11:46 AM by perrypower1 Star rating in Derbyshire/Fuerteven.... 647 posts Send private message

perrypower1´s avatar

Brexit starting point from EU...hard Brexit or no Brexit.

Therea May's position.  The U.K. wants full, free,  unfettered access to the single market with control of EU migration.  

This sounds to me like we are shifting to a softer and softer Brexit if at all.  Leavers you need to understand that the most likely scenario is that neither remainers nor leavers are going to be happy with the outcome.  But it is the leavers that are going to be the most unhappy.  Leavers have imagined a wonderful outcome of picking and choosing and eating cake.  Currently nothing has happened but market volatility and the worry of a lot of threats from the largest parts of the economy.  Remainers still have everything they wanted bar certainty.  Leavers have nothing new.  There is no plan, no promise, leavers you may have to be content with Brexit means Brexit for a very long time with no real change to the way things are done now.  

What surprises me is why Leavers are not more vocal about the exit plan.  You seem content to be told to be quiet, be patient and that you don't need to know what is planned.  Just accept that Brexit means Brexit. Maybe the phrase shafted means shafted is easier for you to understand.

There is going to be one heck of a lot of disappointed people in two years time.  

 


This message was last edited by perrypower1 on 27/10/2016.


This message was last edited by perrypower1 on 27/10/2016.



Like 2      
27 Oct 2016 11:57 AM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

Great news for Sunderland as Nissan announces news models to be built there

What promises / commitments / assurances on Brexit have the govt made to Nissan and and why are they not shared publicly?

 



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27 Oct 2016 12:07 PM by baz1946 Star rating. 2327 posts Send private message

The reality is most British people are the descendants of immigrants, the Anglo Saxons having died out long ago.

Large parts of SW France were once part of England and if you could find a boat, free movement existed as far back as the Middle Ages. My own ancestors came from France after the Norman Conquest.

Mankind has been moving around the globe since creation and will continue so to do until the end of the earth.

This principle of ‘little Britain’ exists only in the limited vision of people who refuse to embrace the wider world and the infinite possibilities and contribution immigration presents. If the government were honest they would admit the impossibility of preventing or controlling it.

It is impossible to control the movement of people determined enough to move to another country for a better life. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain. The USA has tried that for years but the Mexicans keep coming and keep finding employment.

The only realistic way to stop immigration is a trashed economy and severely limited social benefits. These things will probably come to pass eventually after Brexit as Britain’s economy declines and the state runs out of money.

My point is centuries of immigration has created the nation of Britain you see today

Of course we are descendants that still doesn't make it right that we get the rubbish coming here who want to return the country into back where they came from.

Free movement did not exist in the form we now know it as, people travelled all over the world trading, some stayed, some didn't, many came to conquer, many did come for a better life, how the middle ages of Great Britain offered a better life to what they had I don't know.

I am not 'Little Britain' as you put it, I don't have limited vision, you are the one who wont open your eyes to the problems being caused by the immigration of people that are doing no good for the UK, I am not talking about genuine folk who have the skills and mindset to work and make a better future.

The Mexicans can get into America because the last time I saw it both countries were joined together, the UK is an Island, the Americans employ the Mexicans, on the whole, for dirt cheap wages knowing full well they can't complain about them. A totally different immigration problem and for sure nothing like we have.

You seem to be only interested in telling everyone that the UK is going to have a 'Trashed' economy because we want to stop the rubbish from coming in, and of course because we voted out,  if we severely limited benefits to all these types of people we would be millions of £££££'s better of.

Yes, past centuries of immigration did help, lets not forget we needed people due to massive wars and illness's that practically wiped out many thousands of the populations, we don't want it now and cannot sustain it now.

This is not the Middle Ages anymore, or what happened in the past, this is now.





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27 Oct 2016 12:11 PM by hughjardon Star rating in Jaywick Sands. 418 posts Send private message

hughjardon´s avatar

Fantastic News http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37787890 

MORE to COME IM sure the UK is open for BUSINESS

And more good NEWS 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37786467

Love Hugh xxx

 

 


This message was last edited by hughjardon on 27/10/2016.

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27 Oct 2016 12:23 PM by rob_j1 Star rating. 99 posts Send private message

Baz

You say "the rubbish coming here" as if that's the be all and end all. you later attempt to retract that position, but then you finish with the same point.

 

Let's be clear, there are some good and some bad. most, on the whole, are decent hard working folk. I could be blunt and ask you to quantify "how many are rubbish" but in reality it's a difficult question to answer ,  and probably both inflammatory and unfair.

 

I've had the economics discussion and not seen a credible counter other than a thoughtful but what I believe to be tangental discussion on social cohesion.

Your post doesn't dance hat is cussing one jot. frankly, you come across more as a racist by saying immigrants are rubbish.





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27 Oct 2016 12:36 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

The irony is that the EU could have had their cake and eat it if only they were prepared to be less protectionist, more flexible, less ideological, to accommodate and forward plan for the varying needs of the different member states ( rather one size fits all), and be better co-ordinated and willing to swiftly respond to uncomfortable realities.

As things currently stand they are doing none of the above which is alienating not only UK citizens but also other member state's citizens. 

They need to better heed the mood and evaluate the wider repercussions from failing to do so, and be far more willing to listen to citizens genuine concerns in member states, and where possible reassure ( not in rhetoric but corrective action).

IMHO the EU is far too entrenched and inflexible ..... perhaps this will act as a wake up call?

The difference between the remain and leave camp on this thread appears to be that the leave camp want a co-operative approach that benefits all ( and does not wish harm on the EU) whereas some in the remain camp sadly appear to be wishing for more intransigence so that it WILL harm the UK or  sadly wishing for this to fail.

Just as has been pointed out that leavers fail to debate a way forward ( do they? I thought that all manner of aspirations and methods to achieve this had been identified, plus the open debates in Parliament continue) whereas the remain camp fail to reflect  and debate the current failings of the EU and how those failings can be realistically corrected.

Are you wanting reform and if so what reform and how can this be adequately achieved given the current system and intransigence of those "in power" who to date appear determined to scupper any treaty change?

P.s. rob_j1 ...the need for cohesion is not a tangential concern, it is a very real concern is it not?

 

 


This message was last edited by ads on 27/10/2016.


This message was last edited by ads on 27/10/2016.


This message was last edited by ads on 27/10/2016.



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27 Oct 2016 12:54 PM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message


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27 Oct 2016 1:03 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

Thanks Tadd.

If this addresses the following then that would be great for everyone concerned.

Wallonia fears they would give too much leverage to multinationals

whilst also addressing other realistic citizen's concerns.

Sounds hopeful and a way forward (positive template) for the UK also?

 





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27 Oct 2016 1:12 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

Al

The rubbish' as you call ordinary people in search of a better life, can turn around their situation just given a chance and opportunity. You have a disgraceful view of your fellow man. Anyone including you can find themselves is a bad situation because of war, or just sheer bad luck. If it happened to you perhaps the narrow prisim you see human beings through would be very different.



_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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27 Oct 2016 1:42 PM by BigAl2015 Star rating. 194 posts Send private message

Micky

Are you sure your reply was aimed at me, I don't recall being responsible for any of the content you are talking about?

By the way I do agree with the sentiment.





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27 Oct 2016 1:45 PM by rob_j1 Star rating. 99 posts Send private message

Ads

The irony is that the EU could have had their cake and eat it if only they were prepared to be less protectionist, more flexible, less ideological, to accommodate and forward plan for the varying needs of the different member states ( rather one size fits all), and be better co-ordinated and willing to swiftly respond to uncomfortable realities.

As things currently stand they are doing none of the above which is alienating not only UK citizens but also other member state's citizens. 

This may be a question of context, but I find it more than a little strange to hear you position it that way. The EU is for open borders. How is that protectionist? We here in the UK have moved towards closing our borders, have we not? Which of the two appears more protectionist? You would have no doubt heard the current Brexit position alternatively called "Project Hate", which directly refers to the position of immigration and open or closed borders.

There is a quite separate discussion on trade, where there are 4 freedoms applied internally within the EU. These 4 freedoms cant possibly be considered protectionist, unless one is severely trying to distort reality to pursue an agenda.

They need to better heed the mood and evaluate the wider repercussions from failing to do so, and be far more willing to listen to citizens genuine concerns in member states, and where possible reassure ( not in rhetoric but corrective action).

IMHO the EU is far too entrenched and inflexible ..... perhaps this will act as a wake up call?

Yes. Entrenched in the 4 freedoms. Bastards.

 

The difference between the remain and leave camp on this thread appears to be that the leave camp want a co-operative approach that benefits all ( and does not wish harm on the EU) whereas some in the remain camp sadly appear to be wishing for more intransigence so that it WILL harm the UK or  sadly wishing for this to fail.

Again, I just cant get my head around how you suggest a union pursuing the 4 freedoms, with 27 countries cooperating, can seriously be labelled as uncooperative. If you would ever remember the bad old days of trying to send goods across europe on a truck, and get stopped at every turn, with paperwork upon paperwork, delays at every border, and a simple trip which today takes a day, yet in the past used to take several days, you must have forgotten how bad things were. Looking solely at logistics, and how things have improved immensely, would be instructive.

 

Just as has been pointed out that leavers fail to debate a way forward ( do they? I thought that all manner of aspirations and methods to achieve this had been identified, plus the open debates in Parliament continue) whereas the remain camp fail to reflect  and debate the current failings of the EU and how those failings can be realistically corrected.

Ah, yes. Because we want to have our cake and eat it too, we're "genuine." Thats really taking the mickey. I'd like to know what the failing are that the EU need to resolve for us here in the UK, that we cant resolve for ourselves currently.

Are you wanting reform and if so what reform and how can this be adequately achieved given the current system and intransigence of those "in power" who to date appear determined to scupper any treaty change?

P.s. rob_j1 ...the need for cohesion is not a tangential concern, it is a very real concern is it not?

To be honest, I dont feel the need for reform. Today, I, or any member of my family, can go and work anywhere in Europe, and we have a great economy here in the UK, with things powering along. We can also retire to anywhere in Europe, and easily move our money back and forth. We dont have interference due to government stopping us from doing what we want (open borders). I look ahead, and all I see is the opposite coming, with borders closing, and trade opportunities diminishing due to tariffs coming. We decided to close our borders and turn our backs on the wider word, in "spendid isolation"; WE took a decision, WE took an action, yet some people twist this into something the EU has done. 

And all for what? Become some older folks want the little Britain of 50 years ago, dreams of an empire of ages past that will never return, bitterness over failed mining, and a general anti-establishment feeling, all whipped up into a frenzy over a misguided and racist position (hmm, Adolf Hitler tried that; where did that get us...Great aspiration there, dont you think Ads? And no, I'm not serious, for those that cant detect sarcasm, in fact I'm deathly afraid that the mistakes of the past will be repeated, as history so often does).

So finally to your point of social cohesion. Yes. I would agree with you that many studies have shown we are afraid of that which is different. It makes us uncomfortable. Yes. But what is the alternative? Again, borrowing from that figure from the past, do you want to pursue an Aryan outcome? Surely not. We've intermingled races since day one, so much so, that our DNA even to this day still retains traces of Neanderthal man, believe it or not. But some people here cant or wont look at the past, never mind what lessons can be learned from it. Far better to repeat the mistakes from the past, eh?





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27 Oct 2016 1:52 PM by baz1946 Star rating. 2327 posts Send private message

You say "the rubbish coming here" as if that's the be all and end all. you later attempt to retract that position, but then you finish with the same point.

 

Let's be clear, there are some good and some bad. most, on the whole, are decent hard working folk. I could be blunt and ask you to quantify "how many are rubbish" but in reality it's a difficult question to answer ,  and probably both inflammatory and unfair.

 

I've had the economics discussion and not seen a credible counter other than a thoughtful but what I believe to be tangental discussion on social cohesion.

Your post doesn't dance hat is cussing one jot. frankly, you come across more as a racist by saying immigrants are rubbish.

No, I wont retract from anything I say, when I say the rubbish I mean it as the people who are coming here to beat the system, take a fancy to keeping young girls as sex objects, and so on, you have to be a little short sighted not to have noticed this happening, as to how many well take your pick.

I have no problem with genuine people from within the EU coming here, again how many does that amount to as apposed to the ones coming here from countries that are nothing to do with the EU. Take a look at the Calais camp for that answer.

Being called a racist is the new word for speaking the truth what others don't want to hear. My deceased Son-in-Law was actually called a racist for saying too many people are coming into the UK and it should be stopped, he was a black Jamaican. 





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27 Oct 2016 2:05 PM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

We here in the UK have moved towards closing our borders, have we not?

Whe did the UK actually open its borders to me they have alwasy been and are currently closed. Yes EU citizens can cross our closed borders as can EU trade but they are still closed and all entires are subject to inspection and validation by the border force and customs.



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27 Oct 2016 3:00 PM by rob_j1 Star rating. 99 posts Send private message

Tadd

THAT'S actually funny. the overwhelming whinge from people here is that it's too easy for people.to come in.

Either we're too open or too closed. we can't be both.





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