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Some may consider your thoughts as idealistic theory Mikeyfinn that is a world away from the realities that they experience firsthand.
Tell that to the Greeks who now have little hope for their future as those who previously benefited from debt relief now stubbornly and ironically refuse to give the same "consideration" to those being subjected to a straight jacket of crippling austerity measures that result in a downward spiral that only benefits the ECB and IMF and does nothing other than belittle and decimate a nation of citizens .. real people, real desperation, real humiliation.
You mention Spain....Tell that to those nationals who lost their homes as a consequence of recession caused by failures of the political elites to adequately monitor and regulate their Banks who loaned irresponsibly and whose mortgage clauses are now deemed to be abusive and illegal , those same Banks who continue to be unregulated and unaccountable in their continuing malpractice and unethical behaviour.
Tell that to the citizens in other European countries who have seen their families torn apart as the only hope has been to travel abroad for work, and in that process effect ( albeit unintentionally) a downward effect on salaries, a negative effect on social structures that have taken decades to create.
Tell that to citizens who now understand that the German bank has a huge current account surplus that is illustrative of a dangerous imbalance which when uncorrected has the potential to cause disruptions to trade and feed a populist and violent political response. We now learn that Germany is the largest single violator of the Eurozone stability rules and should face punitive sanctions if EU treaty law was enforced ( macro economic imbalance procedure which states that the Commission should launch infringement proceedings if this occurs for three years in a row). Apparently this has been increasing since 2009.
Germany sees it's loans as a way of extending control over the policies of the borrowing nations.
There appears so much hidden from the citizens of Europe in this regard, and the more that is identified and left unreformed, the greater the concern.
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Ad the problems you listed will not be fixed by a uk exit
The eu needs more effort in working together to stop the corruption in politics and the finance sector
Until we do it together wipe out debt focus on the needs of all this sort of thing will continue and get worse if uk exits or not
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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”
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I have never denied that the EU has problems. What organisation of such complexity doesn't? However as Tadd rightly points out, leaving achieves nothing. It is a retrograde step that cannot ever be undone.
I have held senior management roles in my life. I have worked through problems in cooperation with many others. Sometimes people wanted to resign when it seemed the difficulties were insurmountable. We were always more successful remaining and working them through together. In addition occasionally it’s more advantageous to the broader aim to turn the Nelsonian blind eye to some regulations in order to get the job done effectively.
I don't say the EU does the same but I understand realities sometimes suffocate expectations. The public are never satisfied. That's then the nature of democracy.
National governments carry most of the responsibility for the ills ads describes. The EU is a balancing act between effective regulation and overbearing policing. Some like ads believe in the former others like UKIP the latter. The EU moves slowly a snail’s pace some may say. People run out of patience especially they who believe in greater compliance enforcement.
In the end I believe it's much better to belong. It's much better to hold ideals close than lose hope. For myself the EU represents hope for the future of Europe, not for my generation but my grandchild's and beyond.
The very suggestion of racism requires a robust response. People have to stand up and be counted. Racism is an evil of our times and of human history. It has no place in modern society.
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 28/05/2016.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Just how do you suppose under the current system you are going to gain reform where those in real power are the benefactors to the status quo, who for whatever reason pay scant regard to citizens real needs in the countries now badly affected by these " policies", or demonstrate willingness to address uncomfortable realities as they endeavour to marginalise those who bring attention to these facts under the false precept that they are selfish and just looking after their own interests?
It could be argued perhaps that those who retain idealistic thoughts ( with good intentions) are perpetuating a system that fails to reform and refuse to see the uncomfortable realities?
Perhaps Brexit is the wake up call? Who knows? But so far there appears little willingness on the part of those in power in the European Union to rethink treaty arrangements, or address the implications of their policies on such widely diverse member states , or follow procedures within existing remit intended to avert abuse, or ensure member states adhere to the rule of law etc ... but in the interim many citizens are paying the high price for their failures.
This message was last edited by ads on 28/05/2016.
This message was last edited by ads on 28/05/2016.
This message was last edited by ads on 28/05/2016.
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The threats have now started Spain closing borders on Gibraltar what next turf all the Brits out of Spain let them re apply for Visas and Residency,France closing the tunnel down there end all non EU residents forced to return home
I would vote to stay In if the EU got very nasty leading up to vote day what other choice would I have they have us cornered over a barrell ist a bit like the Hells Angels of which I know much about you never really leave if you get my drift
Love Hugh xx
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Done the Spain thing Happier in the UK
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One of the misconceptions in the minds of the British is that this referendum is about Britain alone. In one sense it is just about what the British think of the EU. However I believe to see that in isolation from the rest of Europe is if a may say so a tragic mistake. It misses the entire concept of what the EU represents, its purpose and its political aims.
We Europeans are one people. We have shared values we believe in the same things. Nationalism divides us. Europeanism unites us as a people. What hurts one country, hurts us all. What benefits one country eventually benefits us all.
Some politicians seek to broaden divisions for their own purposes. Some believe united we are stronger against the threats the rest of the world outside Europe presents.
Those threats have never been greater since the end of WW11. America will retreat into isolation if Trump gets elected. Islamic violence is not going away and a weaken Europe will encourage them. Putin’s gangster Russia will join in the party.
Brexit will not just weaken Britain it will weaken the rest of Europe and possibly start a domino effect whereby the EU as an institution collapses. If that happens consider the impact on market economics. It could herald a return to the thirties with all he poverty and unemployment that brought.
It is a folly to believe Britain can stand alone in a globalised world and prosper. It is also an illusion that Britain can defend itself from aggression alone. NATO may be weakened if Trump is elected. At the very least he will reduce the US commitment to the defence of Europe with his slogan ‘America First.’
This is not a time to threaten the stability or solidarity of Europe. There are broader questions than just the impact of EU immigration. Remember Spain has hundreds and thousands of EU immigrants assimilated quite well in the nation. Why not Britain? Because it’s about perception, not realities
For the Brits here in the UK it is for Britain alone, the EU doesn't work, for a very strange reason many cant, wont or realise this.
We Europeans are not one people and never will be, if we were we would be wrecking the UK economy with strikes like the French are doing now, burning the roads, messing up the tourist industry, ignoring the new directives like Italy does, and so on with the others doing similar.
No way will America ever retreat into isolation, it's not America's way of doing things, Trump or no Trump.
Islamic violence will encourage them will it? How is it then that it's getting worse all the time and we are all in it together, as you say, do you think that the islamic crap have the brains to work that out, working on that assumption if Egypt, for one, was in the EU the violence it's getting wouldn't be half as bad then.
Yes, a domino affect could happen and maybe thats what many are waiting for, the first one to have the balls to get out so they can follow.
America has always been America first, you said so the other day with your post about the president who couldn't help out in the beginning of WW11...Nothing new in that one, America pokes its nose in if it thinks it can get something out of it, usually profit.
What is it with this stability thing and the EU, recent events have shown that some of the EU never shared information about an impending terrorist threat to others, if you want to bring up immigrants again Spain could if it wished lose millions in its size alone, the UK get a new cities worth every now and again?
Nothing about perception at all Micky, which proves you know absolutely nothing about what immigration has done in the UK and changed it for ever...And just remember you brought that one up again.
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Ads:
In a sociological sense, idealism emphasises how human ideas—especially beliefs and values—shape society.
It was that same idealism which inspired the idea of the European Union in the founding fathers.
Past visionary leaders inspired the creation of the European Union we live in today. Without their energy and motivation we would not be living in the sphere of peace and stability that we take for granted. From resistance fighters to lawyers, the founding fathers were a diverse group of people who held the same ideals: a peaceful, united and prosperous Europe.
Unlike the EU founding fathers the Brexit politicians we see and hear in this campaign have no ideals, no inspiration, and no road map to create a more prosperous peaceful world. They tell us what they don’t like at great length but have no visionary ideals for a post Brexit Britain. No solutions to the enormous complexities leaving will involve.
They say simply Britain is stronger alone, “we want our country back” and other such meaningless tosh. A leap in the dark aptly describes their political philosophy.
The British public will not fall for it in my view.
Baz: Please read up on modern American history. You will discover prior to WW11 America had a policy of isolationism and non military intervention in world affairs. The US only reluctantly entered WW1 in the final year when Germany was almost defeated. They then retreated into political isolation until Pearl Harbour on 7th December 1941.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Stop worrying. There is no way, NO WAY whatsoever the UK will be allowed to leave the EU. Full stop, stop talking about it. Even if the vote was 70% to leave they would not allow it. Remember the President said, "The Irish are all mad" when they voted against the Lisbon Treaty? No referendums have ever been allowed to stand that didn't go with the EU dictat. Fifty-five per cent of French voters also said "Non" and sixty-two per cent of Dutch voters say "Nee" and were laughed at but at least the Irish came back and won a lot of concessions to agree to a second referendum. The Dutch are still angry about their treatment by the likes of José Manuel Durrão Barroso and make no bones about it IF the UK were to vote "Leave" there will be a massive fear because the Dutch will almost certainly be the first in line to call their own referendum, that is why the EU would immediately enter into new negotiations and offer a lot of concessions to the UK and that is when a second referendum will be called.
And most politicians from the UK on all parties, not just the millionaires like the Kinnock family aspire and expect to be looked after in EU scam "jobs" after they retire or get kicked out and that is now extended to all of government and civil service big whigs including many universities where they pay in full for pro EU courses and lecturers (No body listened to Boris Johnson’s historically correct correlation between Hitler and the admin and PR techniques used in the rise of the Third Reich and the same copy cat techniques use by the EU because they were too noisily bleating his message out like the sheep they are, I wonder who will start denying Hitler even existed, was he a myth? Are we to fear and hide history rather than learn from it? There are few honest men and women who can resist such corruption as the EU offers to academics, civil servants and obviously politicians. Very few. I don't think any ordinary person shouting, "Oh we must stay in the EU" is knowledgeable about what the EU is, what it has done or what it intends. In fact I think they are all lazy enough to deserve what they and their grandkids will end up with. If they are too lazy or too busy to watch the movie Brexit then they should not really have time to comment on the situation.
Watch the film Brexit anyway, at least you’ll learn some history and a little about how the EU works today, where your taxes go and where thousands of British jobs went to placate industrial powers of the other EU members.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0
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I sincerely hope that both camps discredit all threats, blackmail and any inflammatory language from wherever it originates and don't use it in their campaigns.
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Mickyfinn. 1. Firstly if the pound devalued against the Euro exactly the opposite would happen to the "Sterling value of our spanish homes" a €500,000 home today will get you approximately £385,000, if the pound weakens to 1:1 then you'll get £500,000. But that won't happen because Goldman Sachs know absolutely nothing about money. But not just them, all bankers. they live on a diet of smoke and mirrors. And GS are the worst because they have a huge PR machine saying "we are famous". but famous for being absolutely useless and certainly not seeing the American loans bubble bursting which every leading financial writer was warning about for two years beforehand! Byt sticking to their lack of understanding of foreign currencies. I was told 2 years ago that I should tie into my Australian Dollar investment (at 1.45 to the pound) for at least two years as they saw the Aussie strong for at least two years and also predicted the reserve bank as increasing interest rates (this could open up a massive carry trade if they were correct although they wrongly said Japan would not reduce rates further either!). I was worried and countered their arguments (I've been trading FX for 40 years) but went half way. Today those two years later I have lost 30% on the currency and as you know the reserve Bank has gradually slashed interest rates. To be honest everything I look at from these people, even the IMF is always wrong! I don't know where they buy their crystal balls from but I'd be taking them back. Two months ago the idiots told me the pound would weaken against the Euro in this last two months (it was just over €1.4 then) again I went 50/50 just in case they were wrong. They also told me to hang onto Singapore dollars three months ago, I didn't listen to that nonsense as I spend half my life in Singapore and was stunned that GS couldn't see the devaluation coming. So let's face it, dribbling idiots on 2 million a year like Fred Goodwin and Paul Flowers are typical, they are called Bankers, not gurus. Mostly they are stealing from us. Mostly they haven't a clue about anything. They pay out more in fines than they do in dividends to the poor shareholders. I wish they would jail them rather than hand out fines that just hurt the shareholders and actually endanger the very existence of the banks themselves. do you think Goldman Sachs can keep weathering these storms brought about by their own incompetence or do you see them as the next banking casualty?
2. Healthcare. There are "about" four million EU nationals resident in the UK, no way will the EU want to lose reciprical rights on healthcare. Doesn't take a lot of thought to stop being frightened by all this nonsense.
3. Pension increseses. (only increases have been mentioned obviously they aren't threatening to steal the pensions we all paid for) are given to UK nationals in about 30 non EU countries, why would we go to all the trouble of re-negotiating the deal with the EU? I mean, why? Did someone tell you a reason?
I'm still delighted to even be alive to have this chat because the same people threatening all of what I am reading now from the Stay camp are those that told me I'd lose my pension and my kids would lose their jobs (well it's almost true about the kids, the mass immigration is holding down wages to keep the elite wealthy and the poor a bit poorer so they can't afford to live in London for sure). When? when you ask did they warn me of war and unemployment? Of very high interest rates and a devalued pound? They warned us all of this Micky IF WE DIDN'T JOIN THE EURO. Yep, I'm amazed we're all still alive, What happened to this massive unemployment to take us to the highest level of unemployment within the EU that they predicted? What about these very high interest rates? Collapsing house prices? Oh, runaway inflation? I'm shocked they got EVERY PREDICTION WRONG. That's the EU and the IMF...oh yes, they're usually wrong I forgot!
This message was last edited by MANXMONKEY on 28/05/2016.
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I sincerely hope that both camps discredit all threats, blackmail and any inflammatory language from wherever it originates and don't use it in their campaigns.
Ads I totally agree.
Manmonkey:
It's very difficult to read your long posts without paragraphs.
If you have been trading ForeX for so long you should know listening to investment banks are likely to cost you money. Trends, both social, political and almost everything else are your tools, then instinct. No different to gambling really except there is a little less risk and more certainty of a reasonable outcome.
Do you remember 1992? Sterling dropped out of the ERM. I predict the same result with Brexit. It was less than parity then with the rest of the member currencies before the Euro existed. It remained there for almost four years. It hurt me personally because my property business in France hit hard times.
I agree with you about commercial bankers. History tells us they are not to be trusted. However in this case Institutional heads are the people warning against Brexit. They are different animals because if they are proved wrong their reputations sink along with the influence of that body.
A recent survey puts the total number of EU national living in the UK at 3 million. A large number of those have left and not informed the system.
When did Britain run a campaign to enter the Euro? Britain has always had the intent to keep out of the Eurozone. You have got muddled up somewhere there.
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Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Mickey Finn,
Re Goldman Sachs institutional heads.... are these the ones recently discredited leading to massive fines ( 5 billion dollars)in USA?
Also Goldman Sachs involvement in the recent BHS scenario where pensioners have been compromised by a sale to a three times bankrupt....did they assist in any way in signing off the sale even though they were aware of this compromising detail prior to sale?
This message was last edited by ads on 28/05/2016.
This message was last edited by ads on 28/05/2016.
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Goldman Sachs are commercial bankers. My institutional reference was to the IMF and the Bank of England.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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Sorry about paragraphs Micky, looked fine before I sent it. Ruddy Korean phones! I agree not to listen to them blindly of course as I said but when they proclaim to be experts and bombard you with advice it's hard not to be influenced. I usually put their advice into one of two columns. Being bombarded with "stuff" has to have a psychological influence. Like this Stay campaign. I try to think about it based on facts. My only concern is for my grandkids future. In or Out won't effect me.
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Sorry about paragraphs Micky, looked fine before I sent it. Ruddy Korean phones! I agree not to listen to them blindly of course as I said but when they proclaim to be experts and bombard you with advice it's hard not to be influenced. I usually put their advice into one of two columns. Being bombarded with "stuff" has to have a psychological influence. Like this Stay campaign. I try to think about it based on facts. My only concern is for my grandkids future. In or Out won't effect me.
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Sorry about paragraphs Micky, looked fine before I sent it. Ruddy Korean phones! I agree not to listen to them blindly of course as I said but when they proclaim to be experts and bombard you with advice it's hard not to be influenced. I usually put their advice into one of two columns. Being bombarded with "stuff" has to have a psychological influence. Like this Stay campaign. I try to think about it based on facts. My only concern is for my grandkids future. In or Out won't effect me.
You must be totally misreading me about the Euro because the campaign by the leading lights of the Commercial Banks and the IMF all warned of the same Armageddon as they are now, exactly as I stated.
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They say simply Britain is stronger alone, “we want our country back” and other such meaningless tosh.
I'm thinking Micky if you stopped the comments above such as 'Tosh' others might just have some respect for your opinions, they are only that...No more.
As it is everyone else's opinion according to you is 'Tosh' and the such like, because they don't conform to your...As I say opinions.
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No baz. You said that not I. I respect everyone's opinions, even yours. The political slogan I called 'tosh' was UKIP's and almost everything they say IN MY OPINION Is tosh.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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"tosh".
"Misguided" and "foolish" also come immediately to mind but I'm sure if we trawled the posts we could find many more.
It irritates, but so does the habit of telling us how the other side speaks and thinks and then rubbishing the 'supposed' position rather than answering the actual point. Although I admit that on occaision the point is researched and an answer made convincing or otherwise.
I don't suppose we can complain too much as it is a technique often used by politicians. You see it all the time on Question Time. "they say that........................and it is wrong...." "no we never....." and usually Dimble shuts them up at that point."
Leaving the audience clapping and the second politician fuming.
Still a good start could be made by not rubbishing opponents and answering the points actually made rather than invented ones.
This message was last edited by tteedd on 28/05/2016.
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..............................and of course if I agreed with your point of view, everything I say would be acceptable.
I feel you are trying an attempt to ridicule my opinions to the extent you may believe I will give up in disgust and stop posting. It's an old tactic on forums such as this. However I don't really concern myself about that. My interests are with ideas and the essence of the subject.
I have learned a little about attitudes and how people feel about the EU and Britain. I don't go to bars or watch much TV but I expect I would hear much the same if I did.
I realise opinion is very polarised on here with most contributions being from a Brexit view point. However being in a minority has never worried me.
I like this quote from Charles Moore in the Brext organ, The Daily Telegraph.
When Leave dangles exciting prospects of how happy we shall be under liberty and Boris Johnson, they tend to say, “I don’t want to have to find out if you’re right.”
The Leave campaign has not resolved how to handle such people. Rightly, it has refused to define exactly what any deal between the EU and a Brexited Britain would look like. This is a not a general election, and Leave is not a would-be government, so it cannot have a manifesto.
Wrongly, however, Leave has tended to skip almost laughingly over Prudence’s anxieties. There are even some Leavers so fired up by the righteousness of their cause that they want to appeal to high principle and declare “who cares if we get poorer? We’ll be free and proud.” This, of course, would be a fatal error, not because voters are too money-minded, but because, when politicians promise to bring you poverty and freedom, the poverty is certain and the freedom isn’t. The economic risk argument does need neutralising.
Agree anyone?
This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 28/05/2016.
_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz.
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