BREXIT

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10 Apr 2017 1:37 PM by baz1946 Star rating. 2327 posts Send private message

Baz The fight with Islam wont ever be won  because you cannot win against an ideology

Precisely the point of my post. You believe there is a conflict with the religion known as Islam. How did you arrive at that belief? There is not. The conflict is with political factional terrorists using that religion for its own purposes.

Islam is supposed to be a peaceful religion, of course it is, thats why all the atrocities are carried out in the name of Islam, use of the name or not Islam wants to take over the world.

Not just my jumbled thoughts but based on a good few years of experience with working with them and from being in the forces.





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10 Apr 2017 1:41 PM by perrypower1 Star rating in Derbyshire/Fuerteven.... 647 posts Send private message

10 Apr 2017 1:58 PM by haydngj Star rating in ALGORFA. 403 posts Send private message

haydngj´s avatar

religion and greed will very soon destroy this planet





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10 Apr 2017 2:08 PM by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1982 posts Send private message

K perry.    Will take a look at this site.  It came up this time. 



_______________________

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10 Apr 2017 2:10 PM by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1982 posts Send private message

Hey Haydn.   

When is very soon, and which one is going to be the one that gets us mate.  



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10 Apr 2017 2:40 PM by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1982 posts Send private message

PP cancel my tech guy contract right now ha. 

Also.   Islam, catholic, Hindu etc, these are not ideologies, they are theologies.   

Extremist hijacking of religious belief is a crime that needs to be treated as such.   



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10 Apr 2017 5:19 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

Briando -So I think you need to broaden your personal horizons to make statements like this,

Christanity is in decline from it's previously dominant position in Europe that is an accepted process developed as education became more advanced. Secular societies in my view usually develop better without the burden of church and state being one of the same things. In France there is a separation and religious teaching in state schools is banned. I agree religion in the US is still a force but not in the way it once was.

I have no axe to grind against any established religion but it has a place and should be seperate from all other political considerations.



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Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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10 Apr 2017 5:56 PM by windtalker Star rating. 1949 posts Send private message

Mickyfinn Try selling that statement to IS.





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10 Apr 2017 5:57 PM by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1982 posts Send private message

Micky

The world is not re-living the middle ages. Religion rightly in modern western culture has a minor place not a dominate one as in Middle East cultures.

Is what you said, and I for one would not be so highly positioned as to say anything has rightly a minor place, or a dominant place.  It simply has a place and many people find it easier to set their values by, than for example politics.  Because of the population of the world, there are more religous people on the planet now, than ever there were before, its just a numbers game.

Politics has re-invented itself many times through history and because times come along that people are so dissolutioned not to vote, it doesnt mean its because the higher education of the world has surpassed the need for politics to exist or be respected.

So as a person I continually look to broaden my own horizons and take in all the culture available to me, as well as having a great sense of where we came from, may have come from as well as where we are going to and may be going to, as well as what i can get from the here and now.

My brother in law is a retired minister and he studied at Cambridge.  I have many 'discussions' with him about the rights and wrongs of religous belief.  In the end I always come out of our discussions with the utmost respect.

One thing I do take from his religous belief, is that its not a bad code to live by, it beats the political world (which dont forget includes the politics of Zimbabwe, kenya, Pakistan, Brazil etc) hands down.  Even the advent of great education hasnt changed the exploitation of its people.

Secular societies, isnt secular apart from religion?  For a secular society to develop doesnt it have to exclude religion, or not be bound by religion?   I think that ship sailed in the medieval period like you mentioned, secular societies can develop anywhere, as can faith societies or even terrorist societies! (or even political societies). 



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10 Apr 2017 6:15 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

Tadd and Mickeyfinn,

With regard to your response to “ when you get things wrong you need an effective process in place to make those who make significant compromising "errors" to be accountable” you both observed respectively….

Tadd  - "The same could be said about UK politcians (and just about any country), this is not unique to the EU"

Mickeyfinn -  “I completely agree and the UK could have contributed to that had the nation remained. As it will be the UK will have no further political influence on the largest economic market on it's doorstep. “


Well I totally agree with you both, but that is no excuse not to make the EU bureaucrats  accountable for their errors that in part led to BREXIT,  is it?

 

Plus you fail to recognise that the UK PM at that time,  David Cameron,  WAS made accountable by standing down and as has previously been identified, reforms to better cater for some of the impacts are currently in progress in the UK…..Which is more than can be said of the EU.

 

Also the UK's constant requests for more realistic “ transient “ remedial actions to minimise the significant impacts from the irregular migration trends from free movement policy (until such time as the UK was better able to cope) went completely unrecognised by the EU bureaucrats, in fact I seem to remember how it was met with derision at that time.


So much for political influence which sadly in reality was non existent!! It's hardly surprising therefore that in the face of such intransigence and on occasions derision, that citizens lost faith in the EU.

 


This message was last edited by ads on 10/04/2017.



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10 Apr 2017 7:52 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

Briando -For a secular society to develop doesnt it have to exclude religion, or not be bound by religion?    

Absolutely. Religion or faith has an unfair advantage over the political or secular society. It doesn't have to keep reinventing itself to make it attractive to voters or fellow travellers. In fact it just has to remain in the form it's always been in. How does any society advance from that?

Answer; it does not and that essentially is the point of it.

People get bored or tired with the status quo of political life in democracies. Especially if they believe rightly or wrongly they are being left behind or they don’t relate to it's core values. Fatigue leads to disillusion.

Religion on the other hand can be a constant, a reassurance an antidote to the anxieties of modern life. Sounds like a positive, n'est-ce pas?

I believe that’s a form of cop out from the challenges, stimulation, evolution education gifts us all if we just take the trouble to look.It's also a denial of that fundamental human trait of questioning validity and purpose.

It may be banal to say the EU was successful, so successful that it simply became a victim to that desire for change, fatigue if you like. The referendum was the tool to gift a little power to the emotionally and socially disenfranchised and give the entire system a kick up the back side. Just for the sake of it.

It’s a sad theory maybe not far from the truth.

 


This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 10/04/2017.

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Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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10 Apr 2017 8:55 PM by perrypower1 Star rating in Derbyshire/Fuerteven.... 647 posts Send private message

perrypower1´s avatar

Sorry all (except ads, your posts are always very long) for the length of the question.  If you take the trouble to read through it, thanks for enduring.

I want to introduce a new item to debate.  Many Brexiters keep saying that the EU is intransigent and refused to change, but, when D Cameron went to the EU he asked for things and got offered things.  Leave kept saying he got offered nothing and came back with his tail between his legs.  What really went on and is it an omen of how negotiations will go?   Do people ereally think we can get everythign we ask for?

What Cameron wanted: Allowing Britain to opt out from the EU's founding ambition to forge an "ever closer union" of the peoples of Europe so it will not be drawn into further political integration in a "formal, legally binding and irreversible way". Giving greater powers to national parliaments to block EU legislation.

What the final deal said: "It is recognised that the United Kingdom, in the light of the specific situation it has under the Treaties, is not committed to further political integration into the European Union. The substance of this will be incorporated into the Treaties at the time of their next revision in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Treaties and the respective constitutional requirements of the Member States, so as to make it clear that the references to ever closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom."

What Cameron wanted: The Conservative manifesto said: "We will insist that EU migrants who want to claim tax credits and child benefit must live here and contribute to our country for a minimum of four years." It also proposed a "new residency requirement for social housing, so that EU migrants cannot even be considered for a council house unless they have been living in an area for at least four years".

On in-work benefits: The Council would authorise that Member State to limit the access of newly arriving EU workers to non-contributory in-work benefits for a total period of up to four years from the commencement of employment. The limitation should be graduated, from an initial complete exclusion but gradually increasing access to such benefits to take account of the growing connection of the worker with the labour market of the host Member State. The authorisation would have a limited duration and apply to EU workers newly arriving during a period of 7 years.

On child benefit: A proposal to amend Regulation (EC) No 883/2004 of the European Parliament and of the Council on the coordination of social security systems in order to give Member States, with regard to the exportation of child benefits to a Member State other than that where the worker resides, an option to index such benefits to the conditions of the Member State where the child resides. This should apply only to new claims made by EU workers in the host Member State. However, as from 1 January 2020, all Member States may extend indexation to existing claims to child benefits already exported by EU workers. The Commission does not intend to propose that the future system of optional indexation of child benefits be extended to other types of exportable benefits, such as old-age pensions;

Neither the draft deal nor the final agreement mention changes to social housing entitlement but they were never part of Mr Cameron's preliminary negotiations.

What Cameron wanted: An explicit recognition that the euro is not the only currency of the European Union, to ensure countries outside the eurozone are not materially disadvantaged. He also wanted safeguards that steps to further financial union cannot be imposed on non-eurozone members and the UK will not have to contribute to eurozone bailouts.

What the draft deal said: "Measures, the purpose of which is to further deepen the economic and monetary union, will be voluntary for member states whose currency is not the euro.

"Mutual respect between member states participating or not in the operation of the euro area will be ensured.  "Legal acts... [between eurozone countries] shall respect the internal market."

What Cameron wanted: A target for the reduction of the "burden" of excessive regulation and extending the single market.

What the final deal said: Similar language but a promise to establish "where feasible burden reduction targets in key sectors, with commitments by EU institutions and Member States.

The UK was permitted to introduce the benefits changes immediately upon a Remain vote on the referendum.  Why wasn’t this enough to sway us?

 

Thanks and sorry it was long, Perry





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10 Apr 2017 9:27 PM by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1982 posts Send private message

Yes Micky true.  

But sometimes you have to sit back and think about life, politics, education, class struggles and it can be tempting to consider that 10 decent commandments may be more useful than 83000 regulations.   

Anyway, back to Brexit.  !!!   



_______________________

Best wishes, Brian

 




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10 Apr 2017 10:01 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

PP,

May I suggest you refer back to previous postings where this was covered with lengthy explanations. wink





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10 Apr 2017 10:04 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

Interesting updates and further analysis re Australian trade and some economic analysis of unskilled migrants on the UK economy.

http://facts4eu.org/news.shtml





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10 Apr 2017 10:37 PM by perrypower1 Star rating in Derbyshire/Fuerteven.... 647 posts Send private message

perrypower1´s avatar

Sorry ads, it seems I have ruffled your feathers.  I take it from your comments and the link that you don't want the EU to be seen as anything less than intransigent.





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10 Apr 2017 11:05 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

Nothing of the sort PP.





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10 Apr 2017 11:22 PM by hughjardon Star rating in Jaywick Sands. 418 posts Send private message

hughjardon´s avatar

Hey PEEPS google the SILK RD for great BREXIT news 

ENJOY more to COME

Love Hugh xx

WOW ADS very powerful LINK says it ALL 

 


This message was last edited by hughjardon on 10/04/2017.

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11 Apr 2017 1:09 AM by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1593 posts Send private message

hugh_man´s avatar

Thought the Silk Road was the latest Dark Web drug dealers site?

Will they have to introduce WTO tariffs?





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11 Apr 2017 7:59 AM by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1754 posts Send private message

Hughjardon 

Another polite request please stop shouting



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“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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