BREXIT

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21 Feb 2017 4:23 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

"Today we are debating this miserable measure to trigger the process of detaching the UK from the most successful peace project in world history.

I hang my head in shame that the leaders of this country, and my party, were not able to win the majority for remain last June, and it will live with me to my dying day ...

Let’s be frank, and I do say this with terrible sadness, the debilitation of our own party contributed to Brexit.

We have a leader who, unlike the vast majority of Labour members including many of those who joined up in order to support him, has never been a European true believer.

And in the referendum he failed the key test of democratic politics, which is to cut through media cynicism and the mass of seething public discontents with a compelling and positive case for Europe which forced voters to listen.

And now I see no clarion call for the fight, only a three line whip in the Commons to force Labour MPs to troop through the lobbies alongside a right-wing Tory government dancing to Iain Duncan Smith’s tune ".

Lord Liddle - House of Lords. 21 Feb.

UK faces "une facture très salée" 

Our British friends need to know - and they know it already - that it [Brexit] will not be cut-price or zero-cost. The British will have to respect the commitments which they played a part in agreeing. Therefore the bill will be - to use a rather vulgar term - very salty. It will be necessary for the British to respect commitments which they freely entered into.

Jean-Claude Juncker 21 Feb.

 

 


T


This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 21/02/2017.

_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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21 Feb 2017 4:51 PM by baz1946 Star rating. 2327 posts Send private message

Even on a £300.00 a day fiddle money just goes to show Liddle knows no more then anyone else.





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21 Feb 2017 4:52 PM by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1593 posts Send private message

hugh_man´s avatar

Rhetoric comes so easy to those not balancing the books.





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21 Feb 2017 5:00 PM by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1593 posts Send private message

hugh_man´s avatar

The biggest problem with the Lords is they were appointed because of who they are not what they are, they have served this country well in their respected field or just possibly greased the right palms.

How many actually understand the concept of politics and working for working people and that NATO Not the EU is responsible for the European peace project, the majority funded by the US as EU nations don't all meet their promises, but hey he or you can claim anything you like.





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21 Feb 2017 5:26 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

The House of Lords is an institution and instrument of government. If it were an elected chamber they would have equal status and power in the process. As it is it's simply a revising chamber to temper the possible excesses of the Commons. The people who occupy that house are generally speaking politicians with long experience of government. Despite the popular myth 'greasing palms' actually does not get you very far.

Their views deserve respect unless you are a complete anarchist. The Brexit Bill may get amended but it’s a done deal. article 50 will be triggered.



_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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21 Feb 2017 5:32 PM by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1593 posts Send private message

hugh_man´s avatar

Of course their views are worthy of respect BUT only if they have some basis in fact.

How many of you complained about misinformation on the Brexit side?

Reporting comments that Lord Liddle made for his £300 per day attendance fee dont go down well with those that understand the roles of Nato and the EU.

Are you going to reprint every anti Brexit comment made by a Lord of the Realm because it suits?





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21 Feb 2017 5:57 PM by perrypower1 Star rating in Derbyshire/Fuerteven.... 647 posts Send private message

perrypower1´s avatar

Are you going to refute every Brexit comment made by the Lords, becasue it doesn't?





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21 Feb 2017 6:00 PM by Jarvi Star rating in Halifax UK and Sucin.... 756 posts Send private message

A TOP German economist and advisor to Angela Merkel’s government has given his backing to Brexit, saying the British have “shown what is wrong in Europe”. Prof Hans-Werner Sinn, who serves on the Advisory Council of Germany’s Ministry of Economics, has said that the UK had “justifiable” reasons for leaving the European Union (EU).
The 68-year-old who is one of the country’s leading economists told The European: “With the departure of Great Britain the system of the EU has been shaken.“The British have made justifiable allegations and have shown what is wrong with in Europe.”
He added: “We should address the British contentedly.
“Because the UK is so large, its withdrawal is economically equivalent to the withdrawal of 20 of the smallest EU countries - 20 out of 28, which we have in total.





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21 Feb 2017 6:12 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

Are you going to reprint every anti Brexit comment made by a Lord of the Realm because it suits?

That would be unrealistic would it not? I thought those two quotes were worthy of reproduction. The Labour Party leadership has manifestly failed it's core base in Britain by capitulation. The vote to leave the EU did not detail the terms. Those terms need to be questioned and held to account. 

The only house doing it currently is The Lords.



_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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21 Feb 2017 6:19 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message


Of course their views are worthy of respect

Liddle is due very liddle respect, he is just a labour luvvie most of who's career has been at your and my expense. He just wants a continuation of the gravy train. He is just part of the diaspora of people who have latched on to what is supposed to be the working man's party. The people that have lost labour the respect of their natural supporters.

The house of Lords is stuffed with hangers on, some of whom, like the Kinnocks, have two or three publicly paid pensions and live of the fat of the land. If they had any sense of proportion and recognition of the ideals of the party that propelled them to where they are they would take, at most, an MP's pension.

Once we are out of the EU we need a constituional commission to finally sort out our revising chamber. My preference would be to pick just 300 or less of them as we do juries. They would then be truely representitve of the electorate. Not being elected they would understand they only have power to revise. The political class however have no interest in killing the gravy train, which is why they want to stay in the EU and why despite the rhetoric the H o Lords is even more of a sinecure than it used to be,

Juncker is due a liddle less respect than Liddle!

 


This message was last edited by tteedd on 21/02/2017.



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21 Feb 2017 6:22 PM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

Interesting alternative viewpoint made by Lord Howarth of Newport....

......"The two great fears of remainers—that Brexit will be a disaster for liberal values and make our people poorer—are ill-founded. I voted for Brexit precisely because the EU is both undemocratic and failing economically. The twin faults of the democratic deficit and crassly constructed monetary union are fuelling public anger and revolt across Europe.

 

The structures of the communities created after the war and inherited by today’s EU were intended, if anything, to insulate decision-making from democracy, following the catastrophic perversions of democracy in the 1920s and 1930s. In our time, the democratic deficit is provoking extreme reactions among populations who are aggrieved by the depressed conditions of their lives and feel that they are not effectively represented in the political structures of the EU, and that they are ignored or disdained by unaccountable EU elites.

 

Democracy has been trampled upon by the hierarchs of the EU. In Greece the Syriza Government, elected on a platform of mitigating austerity, have been coerced by the eurogroup of Finance Ministers, the ECB and the IMF into abandoning their commitments to Greek electors and serious suffering has been inflicted on them. In Italy, the replacement of Berlusconi by a technocrat selected in Brussels, Mario Monti, led to the rise of the Five Star Movement and the defeat of Renzi in the constitutional referendum. The fiscal compact of Merkel and Sarkozy wrecked Hollande’s presidency of France and paved the way for the surge of the Front National. Reaction to an EU perceived as alien, undemocratic and overweening led to the rise of UKIP in Britain.

 

Outside the EU, we in Britain will be free to make our own policies on immigration, workers’ rights, the countryside—free to legislate on all matters as we judge fit. We will have the opportunity to re-engage our people in a revitalised parliamentary democracy.

 

The referendum was both a great exercise in democracy and a low point in politics. Both campaigns were conducted without scruple—weaponised disinformation on the one side, alternative facts on the other. No wonder people think politicians are all liars. We need to rehabilitate politics. May we hope that leavers will resolve to appeal to the better, rather than the baser, part of human nature, while remainers will forswear condescension and the identity politics of metropolitan liberalism?

 

The EU is failing economically as well as democratically. The contractionary bias of the Maastricht criteria, perpetuated with the euro, has condemned the EU to weak growth, low investment and high unemployment. A combination of the global financial crisis, the crisis of the euro and neoliberal orthodoxy has devastated poorer areas and vulnerable social groups in the EU, with mass unemployment among young people in the Mediterranean countries. The protectionist policies of the EU keep prices higher and living standards lower in Europe than they need to be while discouraging innovation and economic dynamism. The single market is a sluggish, declining region of the global economy. It is no safe haven for us and we can flourish outside. Tim Cook, the CEO of Apple, said the other day:

 

“I’m not saying that there aren’t going to be some potholes in the short-term. There are. But if you look beyond those the UK is going to be just fine. Not just OK, but great”.

 

Since the referendum Apple has taken out a lease on a major new HQ in London.

 

If the negotiators for the EU truly care about the fortunes of those they should be championing, European workers whose livelihoods depend significantly on trade with the UK, more than they care about a grandiose political project which they fear electors in other European countries may also reject, they will want rapidly to conclude mutually favourable terms of trade with us. Beyond that, we must tackle our productivity inadequacies and seek new export markets, and we must take care to support those who will be most vulnerable during the transition. Blame not Brexit but George Osborne that fiscal austerity is forecast by the IFS to continue for another 10 years.

 

It amazes me that so many of my noble friends remain enchanted by the EU, apparently blind to its oligarchic character and to the humiliation and impoverishment of many millions of its citizens. The EU has not been the promised land to which Monsieur Delors was to lead us. On the contrary, a long series of directives and treaty amendments has entrenched a neoliberal and financial model of capitalism where once it was hoped that a social market and social democratic model would prevail. The dogma of employability and flexibility has transferred wealth from wage earners to owners of assets. It has been an illusion for the left in Britain to think that it can outflank a Conservative Government by contracting out responsibility for progressive social policy to Brussels. Increasingly, the European left is concluding that the only prospect of taming modern capitalism and averting the social ravages that it causes is at the level of the nation state.

 

Decent and determined political leadership in post-Brexit Britain will curb the excesses of finance, govern for all the people of the UK, decisively reject racism and insularity, and play a responsible part in the world. The choice will be open to us."





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21 Feb 2017 7:31 PM by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1593 posts Send private message

hugh_man´s avatar

Are you going to refute every Brexit comment made by the Lords, becasue it doesn't

 

Yes if you persist on regurgitating it on here, when it is plainly uneducated tosh.





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21 Feb 2017 8:17 PM by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1833 posts Send private message

tteedd If your opinion of the House of Lords is accurate then the UK is a failing state as well as the EU. Reading the clap trap you write leads me to believe you and many others have a low opinion of people in public life generally.

Simply smashing the system only leads to another one less atttractive than the first.  



_______________________
Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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21 Feb 2017 8:56 PM by baz1946 Star rating. 2327 posts Send private message

Ex-Lords Speaker reveals 'scandalous' moment she saw a peer leave a cab with its engine running to pop into Parliament and claim his tax-free £300 'attendance' allowance

  • Baroness D'Souza said one peer left a taxi running as he ran in to claim allowance
  • She said the 'sense of honour' tied to peerage has been lost in recent years
  • A senior Lib Dem said Lords was 'best day care centre for the elderly in London'
  • All peers are entitled to a tax-free attendance allowance worth £300 a day

Maybe you could explain the above a llitle more fully to me please Mickyfinn.

While you at it have a go at explaining what makes us want to spit when we read about what they claim.

Below are your words Mickyfinn.

tteedd If your opinion of the House of Lords is accurate then the UK is a failing state as well as the EU. Reading the clap trap you write leads me to believe you and many others have a low opinion of people in public life generally.





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21 Feb 2017 10:21 PM by tteedd Star rating in Hertfordshire & Punt.... 990 posts Send private message

"tteedd If your opinion of the House of Lords is accurate then the UK is a failing state as well as the EU. Reading the clap trap you write leads me to believe you and many others have a low opinion of people in public life generally.

Simply smashing the system only leads to another one less atttractive than the first. "

 

Not sure 'claptrap' is temporate language Micky. But since you use the word we can invite people to read both my posts and yours and decide which are nearer claptrap.

The post repeated above clearly comes into that category:

Why would a disfunctional house of Lords indicate that the UK is a 'failing state'?

There are many in public life who do not engender respect but there are also many with a vocation. Unfortunately many grubbing also-rans end up the the 'other place'. I'm sure we could do better, as indeed many in the house of lords will have affirmed (before they got there that is).

'Smashing the system' is pure invention and must therefore win your lable, 'claptrap'. I clearly called for a Constitutional Commission. This sounds much more like evolution than revolution to me, and I would hope to any other fair minded person.

 

 





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21 Feb 2017 10:28 PM by robertt8696 Star rating in Midlands, UK. 479 posts Send private message

Funnily enough, if i remember rightly, MEP's at Strasbourg dont have meetings on a Friday, but they have to turn up at the expenses office to claim their weeks expenses. They do of course get a days expenses for this pleasure, and as there are no meetings that day, the crafty ones take their suitcase to the queue, so as soon as they have signed they race to the TGV or airport to get home! The really crafty ones get in the queue at about seven in the morning, so they get out of there and on transport home, so they dont lose too much of the (working!) day........ and people say the Lords are bad





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21 Feb 2017 10:33 PM by robertt8696 Star rating in Midlands, UK. 479 posts Send private message

Another thought that draws the matter of British politics into focus for me, is has anyone thought the last time there was any major change to Parliament and its protocols? I seem to remember it was Oliver Cromwell, Bearing in mind this was nearly 400 years ago, does anyone, like me, think its time for an overhaul?





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21 Feb 2017 11:17 PM by bobaol Star rating. 2253 posts Send private message

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You mean like the 1999 act that removed hereditary peers (except for 92 that the other Lords voted to stay)?
The papers at the time reported it as:
6 November 1999: The names of hereditary peers who will remain – for a while – in the reformed House of Lords is read out. 800 years of history ends in seven minutes.

Or go back to the Reform Act of 1832. Up until then, a parliamentarian represented a borough which could consist of just a few landowners to vote the MP in. It also stopped one person representing more than one borough (the Duke of Norfolk at the time represented 11 boroughs).

Or the Reform Act of 1867 which allowed landowners and those who paid more than £10 a year in rent to be able to vote (doubling the number of voters from 1 million to 2 million).

Or the reform Act of 1884 which gave rural dwellers the same voting rights at city dwellers.

Or even 1918 which gave the vote to non-home owners and set a number for those who could sit in parliament.

I'll think you'll find there have been quite a few major changes have been made since Cromwell's day. Unless you want to go back to a time of a dictator whose sole reason for reform was in name of God as a Puritan.





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22 Feb 2017 12:17 AM by ads Star rating. 4134 posts Send private message

The sad thing is that the House of Lords was intended to be a second chamber intended to bring about greater reflection (debate) and opportunity to reconsider detail in the form of amendments associated with upcoming bills to be passed back to Parliament (where appropriate), so as to bring wider perspective, clarity and detailed intellectual evaluation to the democratic process (since Parliament has the final say).... but unfortunately the members of the House of Lords have been so expanded in number over the years, that instead of being peers of the realm who had made their mark and earned respect from their wide experience and contribution to British society during their lifetimes, this no longer is the criteria by which they are admitted to the House, and the system has been compromised by all too many who are admitted as recognition of "favours received", thus undermining the respect and diverse intellectual capacity of the chamber.

There are still those however who do add value to debate and evaluation, so to dismiss all is to do a disservice to those with merit, wide experience and good well balanced intent. What should happen is for there to be a reassessment of members and their ability to contribute given their own area of expertise, and thereby provide an honourable well balanced second chamber, but also to create a better monitoring system with effective accountability mechanisms in place to deter abuse (of the like recently identified).

Until such time as further reform of the House of Lords is forthcoming, it sadly appears to have lost the respect and trust of many citizens, which in the case of the Brexit debate appears in the eyes of some to expose the opportunity for "non honourable manipulative intent", in the form of intent to override the will and democratic majority vote of the British electorate, which ironically has been most recently recognised in Parliament. 

Let’s hope in the interim that honourable intent prevails!!

 

 


This message was last edited by ads on 22/02/2017.



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22 Feb 2017 7:36 AM by windtalker Star rating. 1949 posts Send private message

Apparently according to leading EU economists the UK  is one of highest contributor's in the EU and when it leave's the EU block of 28 countries it will have a massive impact on the Economics that surround Europe  ..... that will have the same affect as if 20 of the smaller member state's left ......leaving shortfall  and placing  a massive financial unsustainable burden on the remaining  7 member state's.





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